In this episode we discuss with Jonathan Bär from the Center for Academic Advising and Psychological Counseling (support.points FUB) about imposter syndrome in academia as a first generation doctoral candidate.

Audio

HIghlights

„I feel that the academic context is still pretty far from being vocal about class differences or like explicitly working on being more inclusive. There are some things happening, but there’s still a long way to go, I would say. And I think what is also important for me is it’s not only a vulnerability or a soft spot, but it’s also something to be proud of. And I think I also want to encourage this kind of a culture that is like taking pride in being a first generation academic and being more vocal about it“

Jonathan Bär, psychologist and psychological psychotherapist in training

Links

Find useful links on today’s subject and other important things to know when starting your doctorate here.

Transcript

Welcome to the DRS podcast, the podcast of Dahlem Research School at Freie Universität Berlin. My name is Dr. Marlies Klamt, and I’m delighted to guide you through today’s episode. We’re going to talk about a feeling that many doctoral candidates know all too well, imposter syndrome. That inner voice that keeps telling you that you don’t really belong, that your achievements don’t count, or that one day you’ll be found out as a fraud.

These feelings can be even stronger for first-gen academics, those who are the first in their families to enter university, who often face additional challenges, like navigating unwritten rules, a lack of informal resources, and a stronger sense of not belonging. My guest today is Jonathan Bär, psychologist and psychotherapist-in-training. He works at the support points at Freie Universität Berlin, where students and staff can access low-threshold psychological counselling. Jonathan is also a first-gen academic himself, and in our conversation, he explains what imposter syndrome actually is, why it is so common in academia, and shares many practical tips and examples that can help you cope with those feelings in your own doctoral journey.

Jonathan, to start with, could you briefly introduce yourself, who you are and what you do professionally?

Yes, my name is Jonathan Bär. I’m a psychologist and I work here at the FU Berlin as a psychological counsellor for students and staff at the support point of the Department of Philosophy and Humanities.

You are a first-gen academic yourself. Could you describe what first-gen means in the academic context and what kind of challenges often come with it?

Being a first-generation academic means that your parents did not obtain a university degree and challenges can be feelings of not belonging or like lack of access to informal resources. How does university work? What are the unwritten rules in the academic context? How to navigate all of these things in academia.

Thank you for this description. Looking back to your own time of studying, was there a moment when you especially felt the difference of being first gen?

Yes, I remember one moment of giving a presentation at the beginning of my undergrad studies where I got the feedback after giving the presentation that my language was a little bit too sloppy for the academic context, which was a pretty shameful experience and made me feel like not belonging or not being part of this academic culture and its language.

Did you at that given time already connect that with being a first-gen academic, or was that not anything that came to your mind?

I think there was always a certain awareness of it, but I did not really confront myself with this aspect of my identity so much during studies. It came up more after studies that I was reflecting on what does that actually mean and how can I contribute to empowering first-generation students now in this like role of a psychological counsellor at the uni.

Thanks for the explanation. And the challenge you just described about language being a means to maybe feel excluded or being excluded, actively being excluded, is something many first-gens experience. And it can be connected, but that’s something I want to talk with you about in a minute, it can be connected with something called the imposter syndrome.

Now you’re a psychologist, so you’re the perfect person to ask for a definition. How would you define imposter syndrome? What does it mean in general, not yet in respect to first gen?

So even though I learned lots of definitions by heart during psychology studies, I did not internalize the definition of the imposter syndrome enough to give you a spontaneous recall of it. I found a definition online, which I will cite here. The imposter syndrome refers to a persistent psychological pattern of doubting one’s abilities and fearing being exposed as a fraud. Despite clear evidence of success or competence, it often manifests in academic contexts where individuals attribute achievement to luck, timing, or external help rather than their own capability.

So maybe in my own words, I would define the imposter syndrome as not attributing success, especially in these like achievement related contexts to your own abilities or intelligence or competencies that you acquired, but on external factors and being convinced that at some point you will be found out as a fraud, as someone who actually just fakes it.

Now, the main audience of this podcast are PhD candidates. Why would you think imposter syndrome is so common among people who do their doctorate?

I think the stakes are pretty high. The standards are pretty high. You’re in this very advanced stage of academic achievement and academic career. You’ve made it to a point where very few people make it, which is even more true for first generation academics where it’s extremely unlikely to make it to the point of doing a PhD.

And I just also realized that I didn’t answer to the second part of your previous question, how the imposter syndrome relates to first generation academics or might relate. Of course, there’s like high achievement context at the intersection of being basically a minority in the academic context as a first generation academic can fuel imposter feelings and can increase them and can heighten your sense of not belonging or not having access to informal resources, unwritten rules and stuff like that.

You already mentioned that imposter syndrome is more common among first-gen academics and can also increase the imposter syndrome. Would you say that there are different feelings that show up or that imposter syndrome occurs in different situations compared to doctoral candidates that are not first-gen?

I mean, I’m speaking now from like… anecdotal or like from a position of my own counselling experience maybe, or what I would imagine, not so much from the position of a researcher or someone who can name empirical evidence on this topic. But what I would imagine is that first of all, this decision to do a PhD can also be a decision of taking a risk, of taking financial risks, also doing unpaid labour, which I would imagine is a decision that is more hard for first generation academics. So to speak, you need to be able to afford doing unpaid labour and to navigate these like unwritten rules of you get a 50% contract or a 65% contract, but we expect you to work 100 or 150%. So I would imagine taking this decision is already something that is very tightly related to class background or socioeconomic background.

And in my experience, it’s also often in the contact with supervisors as well as peers that these class differences can show. For example, with which kind of a sense of entitlement or self-esteem do you approach your supervisor? How serious do you take their feedback? In which relation do you see yourself to them? Do you maybe perceive this hierarchy as even stronger because of class differences or trying to make it in the academic context?

And with peers it can also be especially important for first generation academics to actively seek the contact with peers, to get empowerment and support from them, to talk about insecurities. And in turn, this aspect doesn’t only go for the contact with peers, but also for the contact with supervisors.

I would also strongly encourage first-generation PhD students to address this topic, this part of their identity in the contact with their supervisors and to actively seek the support of supervisors and mentoring. And there are great networks such as arbeiterkind.de in Germany, which provide a platform for connecting with other first-generation academics, organizing mentorship, and they do all kinds of things including workshops for staff in the university, teaching staff, to become more sensitive in terms of, in relation to class issues and first-generation academics. So, I think they are a great address.

Now, you recommended coming forward with being a first-gen regarding your supervisor, but maybe also your peers. I imagine that might sound quite scary for many first-gen academics who are listening to this podcast right now. Could you give any tips about how such a conversation could look like? In which situation would you address this, and which approach would you choose?

I’m trying to imagine now if I would talk to my peers and if I would feel like insecure about my PhD thesis or how to approach a certain conflict or a certain difficulty on the way and if I would feel that my being a first-generation academic relates to this or plays an important part in this, I think I would just openly speak about these insecurities and speak about this sense of isolation that come with it and ask them for their support. Or sometimes it’s just also important to express yourself and your insecurities. And of course, that can be scary and is also not always the way to go maybe, but I think it can be also something very helpful and creating more of a sense of belonging and connection with others.

Yeah, and I also think that it’s important to acknowledge these differences. Of course, there are so many potential differences that you have with your peers. And this being a first-generation academic is just one of them. And maybe you have friends who are also first-generation academics. Maybe you feel more comfortable talking with them about these issues.

Maybe you have other friends who are not first-generation academics, but who are also important and supportive. Also, I think it can be important to seek the contact with peers also to get insights into these unwritten rules. So for example, maybe your friends or peers who are not first-generation academics can support you on the way because they have more this informal knowledge and this implicit knowledge.

Yeah, thank you. I completely agree with you that in many situations it might be the right way to be transparent and that way also to access the knowledge you’re lacking by admitting that there’s something that you don’t have yet, you don’t know the rules of communication, you don’t know maybe how to express yourself, how to behave in certain situations. And at the same time, as I said, I think it’s very scary because you make yourself vulnerable, which can have different outcomes, of course.

And I hope, I don’t know what’s your perspective on that, but I hope that we are in an academic culture that’s moving forward more towards transparency and addressing those things instead of just not talking about it.

Yes, I agree. I mean, I’m hoping that. At this current moment, I feel that the academic context is still pretty far from being vocal about class differences or like explicitly working on being more inclusive. There are some things happening, but there’s still a long way to go, I would say. And I think what is also important for me is it’s not only a vulnerability or a soft spot, but it’s also something to be proud of.

And I think I also want to encourage this kind of a culture that is like taking pride in being a first generation academic and being more vocal about it without falling into these like neoliberal narratives of despite or against all odds I made it, I’m super successful, that’s great. You can also do it. Of course, there are these like systemic barriers that need to be addressed but I would also tell people who made it this far and who are pursuing a PhD despite all these barriers that they can be proud of themselves and that they, yeah, can see that as an achievement also, which is, of course, kind of the opposite of imposter feelings.

Yeah, maybe. Or maybe it could also be something that helps you overcome imposter syndrome by taking the step forward, which might be hard at first. It might reward you with that feeling of pride afterwards and maybe also give you a sense of connection because it gives the possibility to other people to come to you and say, I’ve experienced the same. I’m in the same position.

Yes.

Also, I was just remembering, if I’m not mistaken, I made an interview with a professor being first-gen, and he had in his CV on the university websites, he put first-gen on the first line, so he made it very transparent. When I asked him about it, he also said, it’s because I’m proud of it. I made it so far, not many people do that and it’s something I want other people to see and also my students to see so that they know I’m also really open of them addressing the topic when we have conversations.

Yes, I also listened to that interview and I found this aspect also very inspirational. Like I think this is like a good example of making this change and starting to be more vocal and bringing up the topic and creating visibility or increasing visibility and sensitivity to also all these like potential discriminational aspects related to class.

For all our listeners who now don’t know what we’re talking about, we’re also going to link the interview on this episode’s website. So if you want to listen to that interview after this one, you’re very welcome to do so. I would like to circle back for a moment to the imposter syndrome. As you’re being also a first-gen or a doctoral candidate as well, which also is already something which can lead to imposter syndrome as you described before, have you experienced these feelings of imposter syndrome yourself? And if so, what helped you most to cope with them?

I’m not a doctoral student, but of course, I have my experiences with feeling like an imposter or having the feeling that maybe I did not deserve this position that I got. Of course, I have a personal relation to this topic. For me, I think it’s always helpful to address these issues, as I already mentioned, to talk with friends about these insecurities or moments when you feel insecure and to get support from people who are close to you and who you trust.

Based on what you see in your daily work with students, are there some other strategies you might want to add that can make a difference when imposter thoughts come up? I’m thinking, for example, about maybe before presenting your work or maybe before meeting with your supervisor.

Yeah, I think sometimes it can help to use things like positive affirmations like “I belong here” or “I can do this”. But what I really like as a psychologist and in my counselling and therapeutic practice is to work with the concept of inner parts. So, to maybe see these like critical voices and these imposter feelings as one critical part that is speaking within you on this inner stage. So maybe I mean in psychoanalysis or psychodynamic therapy that would be called your superego and in other forms of therapy maybe the demanding and punishing inner part and to see it as one aspect of your inner world.

And there can also be other parts that can enter the stage or whose volume can be increased, who can maybe see the emotional need that you feel at the same time of having these critical thoughts. And in my therapeutic or counselling practice, I would focus more on seeing these emotional needs and finding out how you can meet them.

Is there an exercise you can recommend? I was thinking about maybe, I don’t know, making like a little sketch of yourself on a piece of paper and then just writing all the different voices you might hear inside and then decide which volume you want to turn up or something like that?

Yeah, I think it can help to find a visualization for like different inner parts. My own practice is very much shaped by schema therapy and in schema therapy you would work with different chairs, for example. Which is an intervention that comes from Gestalt therapy originally, but you can like place these inner parts on different chairs in the room, take a seat on these chairs and see how it feels to sit there and get into an inner dialogue. And I think this is an important therapeutic strategy.

But coming back to your question, what can individuals do by themselves? I think like all kinds of like journaling or visualization, as you mentioned, can be helpful. I strongly believe that the connection with others and our relationships with others are extremely helpful and crucial in dealing with these self-doubts and trying to find connection with others. And this is also the approach that we are pursuing here at the university when we are organizing exchange meetings for first-generation students, which I do once per semester with my colleague Marina Allal, where we explicitly try to get people into exchange with one another and support one another. And there have been beautiful moments where students really encourage each other and hear each other and provide each other with access to resources. I think this can be very helpful with overcoming these imposter feelings and feeling more as an integral part of the academic community, even though the academic community can feel like very exclusionary.

And these exchange meetings, can anyone go, like every student, every PhD candidate, or are they targeting only a specific group?

No, they are open to all students and PhD students at the FU Berlin.

And just out of interest, how many people do you usually show up? Is that like a really big group or is it a more intimate setting?

There’s a strong fluctuation, I would say. In our last meeting, we were a very small group. In the previous one, we were like, I think, 17 people or something like that. So, it always depends and we are doing our best to find good moments in the semester where people are maybe not too stressed from exam stress or other things. But I also always tell people in these meetings that it’s already extremely unlikely that they are sitting in this meeting because that means that they are making time for it. And time is a very scarce resource often in first-generation academics because very often they are working besides studies to finance themselves. And then it can be a pretty big thing to also find time for extracurricular activities.

Yes, I can imagine. And that also is connected to the next question I wanted to ask, because you already mentioned a few times how important it is to reach out for support. You mentioned the exchange meeting, but also before you talked about peer groups, counselling, mentoring and so on. And all those things obviously need time.

But in case there are people listening who want to free their time, who think this is really important, this might really help me in the long term in overcoming these feelings of being a first-gen and being excluded or having imposter syndrome, for example. Can you mention other institutions, groups and so on at university that people might want to check out and where they could go and connect with other first-gen students or PhD candidates?

Yes, so in the FU Berlin, one example is a regular meeting for philosophy first generation students, which is organized at the Institute of Philosophy. And in general, I can recommend arbeiterkind.de, which is this platform for first generation students, which organizes regular meetings in the different districts of Berlin,0020and you can choose which meeting you want to go to. They also have an online platform and a support hotline, and they are, in my opinion, a very helpful resource.

Yes, all those resources we will also link to on the episode’s website. So in case you’re listening, you’ll find them all listed there. And speaking of support, you’re working at the support points at FU Berlin. Some of our listeners might not know what that actually is about. For those who haven’t heard of them before, what exactly are support points at the Freie Universität Berlin and how can students benefit from them?

Yes, so the support points are a network of psychological counselling offices which are implemented within the different departments of the university. We are providing low-threshold psychological consultations where people can come without an appointment during open consultation hours or people can book appointments on short notice. And we provide like initial psychological counselling sessions, which usually serve the purpose of getting an overview of the current situation and the current difficulties and getting an idea which steps to take next. And this network of psychological counselling offices exists in addition to the centralized psychological counselling unit at the university, which provides more in-depth psychological counselling with a bit of a waiting time. But these structures exist at the same time and are like complementary to one another.

If I’d like to get in contact with you or someone from the other support points, what would be the first step to do so?

Ideally, you would click on our website, which is fu-berlin.de/mentalwellbeing. There you would find all the locations and opening hours. And then you can either book yourself an appointment or just drop by during open consultation hours at any support point of your choice. And psychological counselling there is free of charge and confidential. I encourage everyone who has a need or a wish for psychological counselling to drop by.

And if I understand correctly, there are no long waiting hours. You would usually either go to one of the open hours in the same week or you would get an appointment in the very near future. Is that correct?

Yes, exactly.

Great. Before we come to an end of this interview, I would love to hear another encouraging message for our listeners. If a PhD student listening right now feels like an imposter, what would you recommend as their very first step towards building more confidence in themselves and their work?

Wow, what would I recommend? I would recommend, first of all, giving space to also these negative thoughts or these very self-critical thoughts and acknowledging that they are there, acknowledging their presence. And then in a second step, try to see what do I actually need in this moment of feeling like that? And how can I confront these feelings? And what is helpful for me in this moment?

And maybe sometimes it can be helpful to also think about what have I already achieved in my life, where am I standing here right now, and to get a sense of I’ve come pretty far already despite many obstacles. And yeah, I think it also requires a certain courage to also see these obstacles and find moments of self-compassion where you acknowledge that you really had to go through many obstacles in order to come to this point. In general, maybe to try to find an inner position of self-compassion.

That sounds like a great recommendation. Before we finish this interview, is there anything else we didn’t talk about yet which might be important, something that you still want to mention?

Yes, I would like to mention that so far these exchange meetings for first-generation students are taking place in German language. And should there be people who would wish for these exchange meetings in English, feel free to write me an email. You can find my contact data on this Mental Wellbeing website. And then we can see if we can make it happen, like to organize a meeting in English for first-generation students, including first-generation PhD students.

Thank you so much for taking the time and for sharing your thoughts with us. I really enjoyed our conversation. Have a great time, Jonathan.

Thank you.

You’ve just listened to my interview with psychologist Jonathan Bär on imposter syndrome and the first-gen experience. I found it especially valuable how many practical tips and examples he shared, from everyday strategies for dealing with self-doubt to resources and support structures here at Freie Universität Berlin. If you enjoyed this episode, don’t miss our other DRS podcast interviews. You’ll also find more conversations on the topic of first-gen academics.

My name is Dr. Marlies Klamt and this was the DRS Podcast, the podcast of Dahlem Research School at Freie Universität Berlin. Thanks for listening and I hope you’ll join us again for the next episode.

This interview was conducted by our trainer and co-host of our podcast Dr. Marlies Klamt.