Alina Franziska Becker, doctoral candidate and long-standing member of ArbeiterKind.de, discusses financial barriers and social differences during the doctorate. In this interview, she shares her experiences on how background and money influence the decision to pursue a doctorate – and what support first-generation doctoral candidates need to successfully pursue their path. Find additional links to help you get started with your doctorate here.

Audio

highlights

„For someone who is a first-generation academic and perhaps also has care responsibilities, it’s not so easy to do the unpaid work that is expected. And it’s certainly also a structural problem in academia that it’s simply common practice to expect so much unpaid work.“

„I thought to myself, the main thing is that my PhD is funded. I am aware that both a job and a PhD scholarship have advantages and disadvantages. […]. But I didn’t have the luxury of choosing what suited me best. Instead, I really thought, okay, whatever opportunity I get, I’ll take it.“

Alina Franziska Becker, volunteer at ArbeiterKind.de

transcript

Intro

Welcome to the DRS Podcast, the podcast of the Dahlem Research School at Freie Universität Berlin. I am Dr Marlies Klamt and I am delighted to be hosting today’s episode, in which my guest is Alina Franziska Becker. Alina is a research assistant and doctoral candidate at LMU Munich, a scholarship holder at the Friedrich Ebert Foundation, and has been active at ArbeiterKind.de for many years. Today, we will be discussing the topic of first-generation doctorates and financing doctoral studies. We will focus on questions such as what funding options are generally available and how Alina uses the combination of a scholarship and a university position; what the choice of funding means for everyday life, time pressure, networks and career opportunities; why transitions between expiring contracts or scholarships are so crucial; and what support from networks such as ArbeiterKind.de looks like in practice. But enough introductions, here is the interview.

Interview

Alina, it’s great to have you here on the podcast today. I’ll start right away with two questions and warn you in advance. The second one is one that you might not normally ask. First of all, what stage of your doctorate are you currently at and how are you financing your doctorate at the moment?

Hello, Marlies. Yes, I’m actually in the middle of my doctorate right now. I’ve already collected my data and am now working on the evaluation and writing process. And yes, the question of financing is quite exciting. I’m financing my doctorate through a scholarship as well as a position at LMU Munich.

I see, very interesting. I’m sure you’ll tell us more about that in a moment. What was it like when you decided to do your doctorate? What role did your financing play in that decision? So was that something you considered from the outset? Or did you perhaps say to yourself, no, without secure funding, I won’t even attempt the doctoral project? Or was that an issue that only came up later?

That was definitely an issue for me from the outset, and to be honest, I kind of stumbled into it. I really wanted to do a doctorate. At the end of my master’s degree, it was clear to me that I really enjoyed it and that I could definitely see myself doing it. But only on condition that it was funded.

I asked my master’s thesis supervisor, because I also worked for him as a research assistant, and he said he would think it was great if I did a doctorate, but he didn’t have a position for me and we could write an application together to the German Research Foundation. But writing an application like that takes time. It takes at least a few months, I would say. And during that time, you’re not funded, and you don’t know whether it will be successful at all, whether the application will be approved.

So I had already kind of given up on the idea of doing a doctorate. Then a position as a research assistant was advertised at the institute where I did my bachelor’s degree. I applied for it and was actually accepted, so I had a 75 per cent position at the university for two years and started my doctorate during that time.

During those two years, I also wrote an application to the German Research Foundation together with my doctoral supervisor. But I wouldn’t have done that if I hadn’t been funded, because it simply wouldn’t have been an option for me. It was just too uncertain.

Yes, it’s very interesting that you say that, even before the topic of supervision, perhaps even before the thematic focus or the methodological approach, securing funding was your top priority, so to speak. Do you think that’s typical for first-generation students?

Yes. I think everyone has to deal with these uncertainties, of course, and that’s difficult for everyone, but it’s different when I know that I have this financial background, that I have this security that I can at least get through six months. But if I don’t have that security, if I know… Well, it depends on me, and if there’s no money, then there’s just no money, and that’s something that affects first-generation academics more often than people from academic households.

There are many different ways to finance a doctorate. You have already mentioned two options. Could you outline the main options available for our listeners?

Of course, there is a position at a department as a research assistant. And these are often staggered, i.e. 50, 65, 75 per cent. Or they are not directly affiliated with the department at all, but are funded by the German Research Foundation or other third-party funding sources.

Or there is the possibility of a scholarship. And to that end, I should perhaps briefly explain how I ended up with my scholarship and also got a job at the university. And yes, what actually happened was that the application I wrote together with my doctoral supervisor was not accepted at first. Because you have to know that only about a third of all applications are successful.

This also means that once you’ve written an application, there’s still uncertainty as to whether the funding will actually be available. And it takes a relatively long time to get feedback. You can certainly have a bit of luck or a bit of bad luck. In my case, it took almost a year before we knew whether the application had been successful.

And although we had two positive reviews, we ultimately received a negative decision. You can then make improvements and resubmit the application and perhaps just wait it out. But for me, the question of funding was again in the back of my mind and I knew that my contract would eventually expire and now I had somehow started this doctorate and would like to continue it. What if the application was rejected again the second time around?

So I applied for a doctoral scholarship at the same time. That’s the other major option for financing your doctorate. And to be honest, that also took some time. The application process takes several months, but fortunately it was successful in my case.

But I just didn’t have the opportunity to wait and see if it would work out this time when my contract expired. The chances are good. We have two positive reviews. It’ll work out.

In the end, I just didn’t have that ease, partly because I have two daughters and therefore a responsibility to ensure that we can continue financially. And since my doctorate… It’s important to me and I’d like to do it, but without funding, no doctorate.

Did you have your daughters already before you started your doctorate?

I actually had them during my doctoral studies, right at the beginning of my doctorate. One in 2020 and the other in 2022. That means they have accompanied me throughout the entire process of both my doctoral studies and my search for funding, and are now three and five years old.

So you had the research assistant position, you also named a scholarship as a financing option. What other options are there for financing a doctorate?

Of course, you can always work full-time and do your doctorate on the side, although that naturally requires extreme time management skills.

And I also regularly deal with doctoral candidates who, at least temporarily, finance their doctorates through their family environment, be it parents or partners.

Of course, you have to be able to do that, and I do think that first-generation academics in particular may have fewer opportunities to do so, which makes it all the more important to have a secure source of funding that does not place too much of a burden on other family members, even though it is nice to have that option, of course.

Yes. Nowadays, the different forms of funding differ not only in terms of what you get, i.e. the financial aspect, but also in terms of the consequences this has for how you do your doctorate, for example the time pressure you are under, the freedom you have in the research process, but also in terms of access to networks and career opportunities. Did that influence your own decision to choose a particular form of funding, or did you say, the main thing is that my doctorate is funded, the rest is not so important to me?

So I actually thought to myself, the main thing is that my doctorate is funded. I am aware that, of course, there are advantages and disadvantages to both a job and a scholarship. And perhaps it also depends a little on what stage of the doctorate you are currently at. But I didn’t have the luxury of choosing what suited me best. Instead, I really thought, okay, whatever opportunity I get, I’ll take it.

And in the end, I now have the doctoral scholarship, and this doctoral scholarship can be combined with ten hours of academic work at a university with all major scholarship providers. And that actually gives you a bit of the best of both worlds, because on the one hand you have the independence that comes with a doctoral scholarship, three and a half years of funding, or even four and a half years if you have children. On the other hand, this position at the university gives you access to a network, and you are more involved in academic processes, conferences and perhaps even publications. And that can actually be combined quite well if it’s a position that’s up to 25 per cent of full-time.

Exactly, you just told us that. So you currently have a 25 per cent position as a research assistant. Does that affect your scholarship? Is it reduced, or are you allowed to work up to 10 hours a week, and if so, is that exactly what you earn?

Exactly, so you can combine the two. That’s either five hours a week doing non-academic work or ten hours a week doing academic work that is beneficial to your doctorate in some way. And that’s exactly why, in my case, I can combine those ten hours at the university. Exactly, 25 per cent plus the doctoral scholarship.

Would you like to say a little more about the advantages and disadvantages for you personally of having both the scholarship and the research assistant position? In other words, where do you see the benefits of both and where might the disadvantages lie?

So if you are fully involved in university life, you usually have a great deal of work to do. Teaching, for example, takes up a lot of time, as do other tasks that are always required in such departments. And because I am now only involved in a 25 per cent position, I am of course only burdened with 25 per cent of the tasks, in quotation marks, and have relatively little teaching, only from time to time, not every semester.

So, thanks to the doctoral scholarship, I have a relatively high degree of freedom and a lot of time for my dissertation. I would say that this is definitely one advantage of a doctoral scholarship, that you can really concentrate on your own dissertation and don’t get completely bogged down in institute tasks. At the same time, you are still involved, you have a kind of collegium, you are not completely alone with your doctorate, but are always in contact with others. Of course, you can also have that with a doctoral scholarship, but it’s something else when you’re at a university like this, when you regularly attend the Joure Fix, the research colloquia and so on, and you also have contact with all the people, especially when it comes to what might happen after the doctorate, because that’s the next big question, which then becomes even more difficult in terms of financing. And there it is certainly an advantage to have a good network, to be connected in some way, to be known and, ideally, to have already published a little something.

When it comes to access to networks, would you say that both types of funding give you access to different networks? Or, as you just described, do you see the advantage in your work at the university, where you simply come into contact with other people who also work in an academic context?

So definitely both, but it certainly also depends on the subject. The scholarship also gives you access to a network of really great, committed, interesting people, who may not necessarily be in your own field. And then there’s the question of what you want. Do you want to continue in academia or do you want to switch fields and look for a job?

Do I need contacts for this, or do I want to stay in academia? And then it certainly depends on the subject, but in my subject, which is also rather small, in empirical cultural studies, I think it’s important to actually be at the university, because there you have completely different contacts. So, definitely both networks are super helpful and super important, but perhaps with slightly different focuses.

Thank you very much for these important points. Based on your experience, are there any types of financing that you would say are particularly difficult for first-generation students to access or might seem risky at first? Or, to ask the question the other way around, which options are perhaps underestimated, even though they could offer good opportunities?

The classic scenario is that people always think a scholarship isn’t for them. I would absolutely refute that and say you should definitely give it a try and apply. I think it’s a great opportunity to do a doctorate with a scholarship. I see the danger that, especially as a first-generation academic, you might feel a bit lonely and have to find your own way in, if you don’t have any other connections.

At the same time, research assistant positions are incredibly rare, although this certainly varies from department to department. In general, however, there aren’t that many of them, and writing an application to the German Research Foundation or most other third-party funding providers is not something you can do as a doctoral candidate. You always need someone who already has a doctorate or even a postdoctoral qualification to help you write the application. This means that you need to have the right contacts in order to be able to write the application in the first place and have a chance of getting funding. That’s why it’s often another big hurdle and, as I mentioned at the beginning, both require an exposé, which I have to write first.

And writing this exposé, in turn, costs me time. And if I’m not funded during this time, then that’s a hurdle that first-generation academics often can’t overcome because they don’t have the funding to bridge this gap. Some universities offer an exposé scholarship for a few months, but not all universities do, and that is certainly the first hurdle that first-generation academics have to overcome when it comes to funding, because they have to take this exposé time for both a scholarship and an application. Ideally, there will be a position advertised somewhere that you can apply for, but of course there are simply not many of those.

Let’s say I’m listening to the podcast now, I’m just finishing my master’s degree, I’m thinking about doing a doctorate, and now I’m a little scared because I’m thinking, oh, how am I going to manage all this? Do you think it might also be a good idea to be strategic and start thinking about a Master’s thesis topic that I could expand into a PhD topic, perhaps even discussing it with my supervisor in advance if I already know that I want to go down this path? Simply to shorten the time it takes to write the exposé a little, because you’re already well versed in the topic.

Absolutely. That’s definitely one option. And something else you mentioned briefly just now, you said maybe I should just talk to my supervisor. And I think that’s the even more important point, because if you’re interested in doing a doctorate, I think it’s always worth just getting in touch and asking where there might be some start-up funding or an exposé scholarship, where there might be a parental leave replacement available, a position that is only advertised for a short time and that not many people apply for, but that I could perhaps use to get started somehow. So definitely engage in dialogue and ask questions, and then you may find more opportunities than there appear to be at first glance.

Nowadays, many doctoral candidates start with a specific form of funding, whether it be a research assistant position or a scholarship, and often assume that this will be sufficient for the entire duration of their doctoral studies. In practice, however, things often turn out differently. Funding and scholarships eventually run out, projects come to an end and, last but not least, doctoral programmes often take longer than planned or expected. In your experience, what does this mean for the doctoral process and especially for first-generation doctoral researchers?

Of course, this is always a very precarious situation that has to be resolved on an individual basis. There are things like completion grants, but I’ve heard some crazy stories from friends. People who have taken a break from their jobs to claim six months of unemployment benefits and then gone back to work, using this period of unemployment to write. Yes, there are really different ways of piecing together funding, going abroad again to get a foreign grant, to add more time.

This is of course especially true for first-generation academics, who may not have this security from their families. Not all first-generation academics lack financial security in their families, but many do, so that security is missing. And then, of course, it becomes difficult and always has to be solved individually. But even there, I believe there are always possibilities.

And yes, I know some who actually finished their doctorates while unemployed. But maybe it’s just worth it because you’ve made it and finished it.

Perhaps it’s important to reiterate what you just mentioned, namely to talk to others and ask them: How did you manage to finance five or six years of doctoral studies even though you may have only had a three-year contract or a scholarship that lasted three years? What different types of funding did you have? I think it’s also important to talk to people who have already completed their doctorates. One point you just mentioned is unemployment benefits. Would you like to say a little more about the consequences for unemployment benefits if you are now only financing yourself through a scholarship?

Exactly, as far as I know, the scholarship is not counted towards unemployment benefits. That means you are not entitled to unemployment benefit I. That is, of course, a consequence. So the 25 per cent position at the university is counted, but you can then consider what that means at 25 per cent.

It’s always a question of these positions, which are measured at 25, 50 or 75 per cent, and which you can sometimes increase or extend, and how that affects your unemployment benefits.

Yes, that’s also my understanding, that if you receive a scholarship, you don’t pay into the unemployment fund and then you don’t get anything out of it, and I think it’s also important to keep in mind that if you have a job, at least with a higher percentage of working hours, and you can calculate in advance whether that will be enough to live on or not, that you at least have the option of financing yourself temporarily with unemployment benefit [Editor’s note: unemployment benefit I] and simply have social security, which you don’t have with a scholarship [Editor’s note: only citizen’s income / basic income support applies here]. So I still think that’s important, perhaps also from the point of view of thinking early enough about what follow-up financing might look like.

Yes, for sure.

Now I want to tell you something that happened ten years ago, maybe even longer, but I still remember it really well. When I was doing my doctorate, I was friends with a doctoral student and I had a conversation with him that really bothered me at the time. He comes from a working-class family and told me that he found it extremely difficult to accept that unpaid work and overtime are often simply taken for granted in academia, regardless of whether it was conferences at the weekend, night work or unpaid teaching. Especially for people who come from families where work and pay are perhaps more closely linked, this can be quite a culture shock. How do you experience this? To what extent does this difference in the perception of work and performance play a role for first-generation doctoral researchers?

I still find it difficult that so much more is demanded of us. Whether it’s unpaid teaching or investing a lot of time in conferences that isn’t billed by the hour. Or the voluntary work that you still have to do on top of your doctoral scholarship, which is also good and important. But of course, you have to be able to afford this unpaid work somehow.

And I think that’s something that people with an academic background, for whom it may not be such a challenge, often fail to consider. But for someone who is a first-generation academic and perhaps also has care responsibilities, it is not so easy to always be able to do this unpaid work, which is virtually expected. And it is certainly also a structural problem in academia that it is simply common practice to expect so much unpaid work.

Thank you very much for these important additions. I am also familiar with the expectation that one will work significantly more than what is stated on paper. Sometimes, even with a 50 per cent position, 100 per cent work is expected. But I would also like to add that this can also be subject-specific, and there are certainly supervisors and subjects where it is common practice or where you don’t have to work more than what is stated on paper, perhaps just as an addition, so that not everyone listening is shocked, but so that people simply know that, okay, this can happen, but there are also other cases.

One initiative that promotes educational advancement for people from families without an academic background is ArbeiterKind.de. You have been involved there since 2016, if I am correctly informed. Take us back in time. How did you come to be involved there back then?

I actually became aware of the organisation through a lecture by Katja Urbatsch, the founder of ArbeiterKind, and during this lecture I kept having moments where I thought to myself, aha, ah yes, that’s me, that totally applies to me. And that really helped me to somehow reposition myself in my study experience and also in my family environment. Then, together with a fellow student, I decided that we would also start an ArbeiterKind group at the university we were attending. We set it up there, and I’ve been active in it ever since.

Perhaps not quite as intensively as at the beginning, when we actually founded the group. Now, with my doctorate and children, I am often involved in mentoring, responding to specific enquiries about doctorates, financing and scholarship advice. And there are two great formats at ArbeiterKind, especially for doctoral researchers. I am also active there.

One is the open meeting of the doctoral group, which you can attend once a month. But this doctoral group also exists in the online network beyond that, where you can simply ask any question in a very low-threshold way and without feeling completely stupid, and you’re sure to find someone there who has had this problem before and can help you.

The other one is not specifically for doctoral students, it’s the CoStudySpace, but it also helps me a lot because it’s a place where you can meet online and study together. And especially with a long-term project like a doctorate, I think it’s incredibly important that you’re not alone in this process. It’s also about exchange, but not only that. It’s also simply about working together and finding the motivation and perhaps also a little bit of obligation to actually sit down and work together.

And that’s with people who have the same experiences, who have the same family background, which makes the hurdle of perhaps going to a writing group at university or something like that much higher. And here in this protected space at ArbeiterKind, it’s totally possible and a really nice get-together, which is very helpful for me in particular and which I can only recommend to all first-generation academics.

If I wanted to participate, how would I go about it? What do I need to do to be part of it?

Just google ArbeiterKind and then register with the ArbeiterKind network. You will need to create an account there, but then you will find all the information you need, including all the groups that exist, including the group in your area that offers a monthly open meeting. Depending on your interests, you can then choose to join the doctoral group or select the CoStudySpace, and you will automatically be included once you have made your selection.

And since today’s topic is financing and money, I assume that everything is free of charge for participants.

Of course.

Perhaps for those who don’t know Katja Urbatsch, she is the founder of ArbeiterKind.de. And what I would be interested to know is, you said that you had heard her give a talk and that there were many moments when you could identify with what she was saying. Can you still remember what those moments were, when you thought, that’s exactly me, and recognised yourself in what she was saying?

At first, the title of the lecture confused me a bit, because I didn’t really see or understand myself as a working-class child. But during the lecture, I realised that the term “working-class child” has a much broader meaning and that many of the experiences described in the lecture were ones that I had also had. One of these was navigating university life, either with a sense of confidence or, in my case, without.

But it was also about how to put together my timetable and who I could ask if I didn’t know how to do it. Or even my first assignments. Who could proofread them? I didn’t have anyone in my family who had experience in this area or who could help me proofread assignments at that level.

And then I felt somehow understood and thought to myself, ah yes, this experience I’m having is really an experience. And I’m not alone in this. And those were two very important points for me. And that kind of carries through to my doctorate, that on the one hand you have this thought, is it just me? And it’s actually never just you. But that it’s also justified to have certain worries and thoughts, because as a first-generation academic you have different experiences or have these experiences with a different background than others.

And that’s exactly why this exchange, for example via ArbeiterKind, but of course also with a doctoral scholarship and its entire network, or even at the university as a research assistant, is so incredibly important, so that you can get through this long period of doctoral study well. And not just with a good grade, but also financially well and, ultimately, mentally healthy.

Yes, I would say mental health is at least as important. You already got to know ArbeiterKind.de during your studies. Did they also play a role in your decision to consider doing a doctorate after graduating?

In my case, actually not. But now, as a mentor, I find that questions keep coming up that are specifically tailored to doctoral studies, or where you can perhaps provide direct support and help proofread an exposé, so I would say that Arbeiterkind can definitely provide support in this area.

Looking back on your own experiences, what do you think would need to change structurally so that social background no longer plays a role when it comes to financing a doctorate and, by extension, who can afford to do a doctorate and consider embarking on one?

For me, these transitions are key. And these transitions are, of course, difficult for all scientists. But as I said, without this financial background and the serenity to endure these precarious transitions between master’s and doctoral studies, between different funding models, or between doctoral studies and postdoctoral research, it is simply not possible for many people. That is why there need to be more secure transitions or perhaps another form of scholarship that goes beyond this, in other words, more start-up funding, more exposé scholarships that somehow accompany these transitions, so that a great many people don’t simply drop out at this point because of this uncertainty, people who might otherwise be able to continue, but who simply cannot bridge and endure this period, and perhaps do not want to.

And this transitional scholarship, do you envisage it being specifically for first-generation doctoral students or for everyone in general?

Well, I think that would be useful for everyone, but for first-generation academics it would of course be even more important. That’s why I believe it’s important in principle that first-generation status is a criterion that plays a role. This also applies to applications and scholarships, depending on which scholarship provider I apply to, but it also plays a role in funding: who is actually applying? What kind of person is it? What kind of CV do they have? What kind of background? What kind of illnesses or care responsibilities do they have, or are they first-generation or not? If that were simply included in the assessment, then I believe it would be very valuable for first-generation academics and also very important in this process not to see being a first-generation academic as a flaw, but rather as a strength and something to be proud of, that you have made it this far with this family background and are not ashamed of it.

What advice would you give to someone from a non-academic family who wants to do a doctorate but is unsure whether it is financially feasible?

I find that a really difficult question, because in principle I would like to encourage everyone, but I also think it’s important to be aware of your limits and then say, hey, before this goes beyond your personal limits, so the question of whether I would take out a loan, for example, is a very individual one and is much more existential for first-generation academics than for other scientists. That’s why I don’t want to make a blanket statement, but would rather tailor my advice to the individual.

Is there anything you wish you had known earlier about scholarships, employment opportunities, and funding options for doctoral studies?

How important networks are. I think everyone knows that already. But you only really realise how important it is over time. So always stay in touch, always talk calmly about your own situation, because then opportunities often open up again because someone thinks of you. Especially with scholarships, always try, always keep trying. ‘They’re only human, too’ is another phrase we at ArbeiterKind always say to our students when they apply for university and scholarships. So definitely always give it a try.

And yes, in retrospect, everything looks pretty smooth on my CV now. But of course I know that it wasn’t all that smooth, but that it was always quite bumpy and uncertain in between. And I would like to tell myself to be a bit more relaxed, that everything will be fine. But of course that’s easy to say from today’s perspective, and I know that it wasn’t so easy for me to cope with at the time.

Thank you for your honesty and openness on this point. Dear Alina, to conclude, I have a few quick questions for you. Short questions, short answers. Just answer from the heart, whatever comes to mind first. Ready?

Ready.

Is there a book, podcast, YouTube channel or similar that you would recommend to other doctoral researchers?

„Frei geschrieben“ is a really great book. [Editor’s note: Alina is referring to the book „Frei geschrieben“ by Judith Wolfsberger]

What is the best way for you to unwind after a long day at work?

With my children and if they let me have some free time with yoga.

If you could give doctoral researchers just one piece of advice, what would it be?

Just keep going, you’ve got this.

What has been the best moment of your scientific career so far?

Oh, that’s a difficult one. I think it’s always the exchange. And when others say, wow, that’s exciting, and you’ve almost forgotten how exciting what you do actually is.

What do you wish for in the future of the sciences?

That there is a reform of the system of academia and that academia becomes more accessible.

Coffee or tea when writing?

Coffee.

And one last question: what would you have liked to have known at the beginning of your doctoral studies, regardless of whether it was related to financing or perhaps something else entirely?

That there will always be difficult phases, but also easy phases. And that it’s really about overcoming the difficult phases. And then it’s fun again.

Thank you, Alina. I am sure that many doctoral researchers can learn a lot from what you have shared, as can many who may be interested in pursuing a doctorate but are not yet sure whether they can finance the project or not.

Thank you very much Marlies.

Outro

In conversation with Alina Franziska Becker, it became clear how much the question of financing shapes the path to a doctorate and that it is often much more complex than one might initially think. The discussion focused on how different forms of financing influence everyday life and one’s own sense of security, and why exchange, networks and initiatives such as ArbeiterKind.de play such an important role here.

I found it particularly interesting how Alina showed that financial stability is not only an organisational issue for first-generation doctoral candidates, but also an emotional one. This is because it means security, belonging and, often, the opportunity to truly shape one’s research freely.

More insights into the many facets of doctoral studies can be found in the other episodes of the DRS Podcast, the podcast of the Dahlem Research School at Freie Universität Berlin – both on the topic of first-generation doctoral candidates and on other exciting topics, such as good doctoral supervision. There are also episodes on the various phases of doctoral studies with lots of practical insights. I’m Dr. Marlies Klamt, thank you for listening, and see you next time here on the DRS Podcast.

This interview was conducted by our trainer and co-host of our podcast Dr. Marlies Klamt.