Join Amanda in a conversation with Dr. Marlies Klamt, a PhD coach who provides valuable advice on fostering a healthy and productive relationship with your thesis supervisor. Dr. Klamt shares her experiences, offers strategies for effective communication, and highlights the importance of setting boundaries. This episode is filled with practical tips for PhD students to navigate their academic journey with greater ease and satisfaction.

Highlights

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from our interview with Dr. Marlies Klamt

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transcript

Amanda: Hello everyone. We are here today with Dr. Marlies Klamt, and she is going to talk to us about the supervisor relationship. So Marlies, I know our podcast listeners probably know your voice, but if you could just briefly introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about yourself. about what you do.
Marlies: Yeah, thanks a lot for the introduction, Amanda.
I’m really glad to be here on the other side this time, not facilitating, but actually answering your questions. I’m a PhD coach. I help people, I support people from the point of When they make the decision to do their PhD up to the defense. So I’m working with doctoral students pretty much every day of the week.
And my main focus is time management, but also other topics like the one we’re talking about today, which is the relationship with your supervisor. Using communication to have a better relationship with your supervisor. And my vision really is to prevent doctoral students from suffering during the PhD journey.
I know it’s not always possible, but at least it’s possible to reduce the suffering part and to actually enjoy the journey as well and say, okay, it’s like an important couple of years, a couple not, it’s an important few years in my life. And I want to make this time a good time and also enjoy it.
And I have a podcast myself as well. And I called it Glücklich Promovieren, which roughly translates to happy PhD, because that’s really something I want to advocate.
Amanda: Oh, thank you. So I want to start off With a really basic question why is it important to have a good relationship with your supervisor?
And that might seem a little bit simple, but a lot of people that I’ve worked with and I’m sure that you’ve worked with have said, oh, it doesn’t matter. I’m just gonna, put my head down. I’m going to push through. I don’t need a good relationship with him. I just have to finish. Why do you think it’s important to have this good relationship?
Marlies: Yeah, I think you’re right. It’s not always on the top of the list of the agenda people have, but I think it’s very important for two reasons. The first one is, if you have a good relationship with your supervisor, it can really have positive effects on your thesis. And people might actually be surprised to hear that.
But I think if you’re not afraid to ask questions, to clarify if you get an answer you don’t understand, and in general to ask for support, then That can really benefit your thesis and the quality of your work. And the, second reason is that a good relationship also can have a positive effect on your wellbeing.
And I think that’s very important as well, because it can be very stressful if you feel your supervisor doesn’t respond when you ask them something, maybe you even think they dislike you or they just don’t. Like permanently, or they just permanently don’t act in a way you’d like. I think this is really a stressful situation.
So having a good relationship with your supervisor just makes your life a lot easier as well.
Amanda: Thanks. I’d love to hear a little bit more about your relationship with your supervisor. I have some other questions for you here, but before we go to them, how was your relationship with your supervisor? What did you experience?
What went really well for you? We’ll start there.
Marlies: Yeah, my supervisor was also my boss. He’s actually the one who talked me into doing a PhD because it wasn’t, actually it wasn’t on my list of, on my agenda when I started working for him. I liked the job he was offering me, but when I started working at university, I wasn’t aiming at doing a doctorate.
And he kept on asking, he was quite persistent. And in the end I said, yes, but. only under this and this conditions, but that’s another story. But he had a really supportive personality. So he was really, as a human being, he was very human. He was very interested in not only me, but all the other doctoral students he had as well as the people working for him to make sure that they actually feel good as well, so they don’t just do their work and then that’s it.
But he really had this, yeah, I would say human relationship, which isn’t always the case in the academic system. He wasn’t like my best friend or anything like that. He was quite old. Can you say old? Do you need to say mature? He was about to retire, so he was a lot older than me. He actually retired just after I had it in my thesis.
And so it wasn’t like a friendship relationship, but it was a very supportive relationship from, of his side. And we also stayed in contact after he stopped working at university after he was retired. And yeah, and actually it was a good relationship, even though it all obviously also had some parts that were more challenging.
Amanda: You said that what made the relationship it sounds like what made the relationship work so was this sort of, this human level, this empathy what do you think a doctoral student can do to build this good relationship if their supervisor isn’t meeting them there with this great relationship or this strong level of empathy or the human feeling to it?
What could I do if I were a doctoral student and I wanted to build that? relationship or support or start a relationship or move my already existing relationship in that direction.
Marlies: Yeah. I think the first step always should be to check your own expectations. That means to find out what you actually expect from your supervisor.
And that often is on a subconscious level. If we don’t really reflect on it, we don’t, we often don’t know what we actually do expect from them. And then they’re disappointed if you don’t get it. And when I give workshops about the topic of the making the relationship with your supervisor a better one, I usually start with an exercise that I call the ideal supervisor, which is one where we actually look at what do you expect?
What, like, how would your ideal supervisor look like? So in an ideal world, and it doesn’t matter if you have one already or not, and you’re not thinking about the supervisor you already have, or the supervisors you already have, you’re actually thinking about in my ideal world, how would that person behave?
Would they ask me if I made progress or not? Would they hold me accountable or maybe not? Maybe they wouldn’t, they would give me lots of freedom. It can be something different for everyone. That’s the interesting thing. And then the second step is to check, to make the reality check and to actually see, does that person meet my expectations?
And It’s very likely that at least in some points, it doesn’t meet my expectations. So the third step would be to thinking about how making, how you can. So the third step would be to. work on making your relationship a better one. And the different means to do one is by having a better communication, communicating in a better way.
And the other one is by something I call managing up. That’s a term that comes from the business context. And it means that you’re managing a person that in a hurry. that in a hierarchy, that within a hierarchy has a higher position than you. And this can mean thinking about when do I approach them best?
When is the best time, like during the day, during the week to approach them? How do I approach them by which means of communication? Do they prefer to be called? Do they prefer if I show up in their office, whatever works best for them in this case, and not for you, I would use. So it’s really about a change of perspective and to put yourself in their shoes.
And think about what is their agenda, what are their goals and how can I use those also to meet their expectations? Because in order to have a good relationship, obviously it’s important that both people meet the expectations of the other ones, at least in the most crucial points. And yeah, so that would, the goal would be to have a better relationship.
Okay. I think the last sentence you can delete. Hang on, I’m going to, I’m going to just say one last sentence. So these would be the three steps I recommend. Check your expectations, check reality, and then work on making the relationship a better one by managing up and by having a better communication.
Amanda: That’s excellent advice. I would like to ask you back to your own supervisor relationship. Were there any challenges that you faced or maybe something that you would do differently, looking back, even, or maybe at the time you thought this isn’t working for me maybe what you had to start learning these strategies.
What didn’t go so well.
Marlies: Yeah, I think I’m not, I wasn’t bad at communicating, but I still could have been better at it because my supervisor was a very, or is a very knowledgeable person. He just had this vast knowledge, not just in the field where I was doing my PhD in, but in like pretty much all the other fields there as well.
History was like a field where he had a lot of knowledge and he often would connect, if he would, Tell him something about your thesis. He would connect that to whatever. This queen in the 17th century, and to be honest, often I just didn’t have any idea what he was talking about, but I also didn’t have the guts to ask because I think often imposter syndrome is kicking in those moments and, oh, if I ask him, and maybe that’s a really important queen, and I should know her, and I should understand why this queen connects with my, Thesis, which is set in the presence, which doesn’t have nothing to do with history.
And I think it would have been a good idea to actually ask him right out and say, I don’t really understand the connection. Could you explain to me what that person has to do with my thesis? And then also another anecdote I would like to share, because that would have really saved me lots of work is.
After I did the last revision of my draft and beforehand in my thesis, he told me, like, all the things I mark when I read your chapters, and he had this kind of Yeah, because I said he has had this, I mentioned that he had a lot of knowledge and that he connected your topic with like many other topics.
And he did that when revising my chapters as well, and would make like footnotes like you could mention this queen from the 17th century here, or this theory. And he told me that was all the marks of all the notes I made on your chapter. These are all just recommendations. You choose whatever you want to use.
What you don’t want to use, and I felt every little note he made, I had to research and try to convert that into something that enters the chapter. So that would have been a really good idea to actually ask him, is that just, are those just recommendations or do you actually want me to use that for my thesis?
Amanda: It’s very interesting and I think also a really common problem is how much can I push back or when can I ask questions? What will people think about me if I ask questions? What will people think about me if I say no? And that connects really well to the next question we have, which is, can you speak up to your supervisor?
They’re grading you. They might be your boss. Are you allowed to say no to someone who is your, is you’re in charge of your future, basically paying your salary maybe. And how do you handle that?
Marlies: Yeah, that’s a very good question. And I completely understand that many doctoral students hesitate when it comes to saying no to your supervisor.
And for good reason. The reasons you just mentioned, they’re paying your salary, maybe they’re creating you. So it’s not so easy to say no. But I think that making your doctorate is not only a chance to grow. As a scientist, but also as a human being, and it’s very important to learn to set boundaries.
I also think that supervisors are not interested to ditch someone just because they say they cannot or they don’t do not want to do something. I think that’s a fear. Some doctoral students might have, but it’s not very likely, or it’s very unlikely that they would actually consider kicking you out just because you said no.
It might be the other case that they respect you more because you do. And then the other thing I want to mention is that it’s also good to think about how you phrase. It doesn’t need to be. a really clear and strict no in every case. Maybe you want to say, yes, but only I can only do this part of the task you’re giving me, or yes, I can do it, but only next week.
So that’s a no, I’m not doing it right now also, but you’re not saying no. It could also be, I can’t do whatever you’re asking me right now, but I could instead do it. Do this and this. So giving them another alternative, what you’re actually able to do, because often people don’t know what’s on your, what’s on your agenda.
And maybe they don’t even, they’re not even aware of you’re having an important deadline tomorrow. So you could also explain, you could say, I can’t do that tonight because I have to finish this paper, the deadlines tomorrow, for example.
Amanda: That’s such great advice and I would just agree with it and I think that’s one strategy for really good communication is maybe not assuming what the other person thinks and really asking them or providing information for them.
What are some other strategies that you would maybe share for good communication just in general but with your supervisor specifically?
Marlies: Yeah, as you already mentioned, not assuming you know what they think is a very good advice already, so if you have doubts, always clarify, because misunderstanding is often a really good ground for conflicts that are not necessary, because you might be on the same page, but you don’t know it, because You never asked.
And then some other tips I could give to our listeners are, is that starting the conversation on a positive note, even though you might have a conflict situation. So you don’t start right away with the conflict. You don’t go into the conversation and say, I really don’t like that you did this and this. I wouldn’t say that anyway, but try to start the conversation on a positive or at least a neutral note. You could do some small talk and just say, Oh, it’s so hot today. That’s not a positive note, but that’s something you might feel you have in common. So you’re still starting the conversation more positively than starting with the conflict directly.
Then I think it’s very important to be clear in your communication, to be friendly, but to really say what you mean. So don’t talk around it all the time, because that means that maybe the other person doesn’t understand what you’re actually talking about. Then another one, which is really cruel, is that you actually listen actively.
What sometimes happens if, especially if it’s a conflict conversation, and it doesn’t always need to be a conflict conversation, but I think that’s like the, one of the worst ones. So it’s important to actually talk about those as well. And that’s why I’m using it as an example. But what happens is that while the other person talks in our head, we are already preparing our next argument.
And we’re not listening to what they say. And you can imagine that it’s very difficult to have a good conversation. If you don’t listen to what the other person says, and obviously that goes in both ways that goes for the other person as well, but that’s something you cannot influence. And then something else is to be prepared.
So supervisors are usually very busy people. So you don’t want to ask some questions where you could find out the answer yourself within five minutes using Google. So try to Like everything you can find out by yourself, do that beforehand, be prepared. Be prepared also means if you go into conversation, bring all the materials you might need during the conversation.
For example, I don’t know, print out your chapter, have it ready on your computer, on your laptop. It means also have something with you to take notes. And then if it’s an important conversation, because The outcome is very important, or because it’s a conflict, you can also practice the conversation with someone else in a role play.
This can be a friend, it could be a colleague, someone you trust, and you just tell them, Okay, I want you to play my supervisor. This person is like that and that. You could, for example, say, Okay, usually my supervisor is quite harsh, so they know how they should play that person. And then you practice the conversation.
You come into the room and you say, Hi, it’s so hot today or whatever. And then you start and you’re playing this conversation and then you get feedback from the other person about how they perceived you during that conversation and what you could do to actually make the conversation even better when you have it with your supervisor in the future.
Amanda: I think that’s such a great idea to get someone to practice it with you because so often I feel like a lot of people are so worried and if you practice it with someone and tell them to assume that you’re the other person is a nice person at heart, right? And not to try and pretend to be the evil supervisor.
Usually what comes out Is that they’re going to react in a nicer way than you think. So that’s such a good idea. And
Marlies: And obviously you don’t want to do that with every conversation. But as I said, if it’s an important conversation, if you’re very insecure. And the nice thing is also you’re getting better.
You’re practicing it. You’re having the real conversation and every time you do so you’re getting better at it. So in the future, you might not have to do that. While right now it might feel like a good solution for you.
Amanda: Yeah. And it’s a skill that you need, not just in working with your supervisor, but it’ll be important later on the more comfortable you feel with these conversations, the easier it will be.
And in many work related and maybe even personal situations in your life. Yeah. So what happens, I still go back to, you mentioned you had this It’s nice supervisor, you would say, I felt really comfortable with, it didn’t always maybe work perfectly, but it was a generally a good relationship, but that’s not always the case.
And so what do you do if this relationship is just really bad? If you have the feeling that they don’t respect you, that you’re not getting maybe what you need and you don’t really see a way to make that better. It’s just not a good fit. What do you recommend that someone can do? What can they do? What options are available?
Marlies: Yeah, you can try all the things I already mentioned, trying to have a better communication, trying to managing up, but if nothing that you do helps and this person just doesn’t respond in a way you needed and you’re feeling bad every time you talk to them or you go to work and see them, It might, you might want to consider changing your supervisor.
It’s something that is possible. It’s not easy to do, but it’s definitely possible to change your supervisor. And I would always consider also how much of your doctorate you have left. If you’re in the very beginning and you feel like the relationship is really bad, talk to someone else. Talk to the other doctoral candidates if they’re happy or not.
And if they all feel the same, maybe they’re happy because they need a different kind of supervisor as you do. Maybe they’re all unhappy, but it can give you more of a feeling if your perception of how this person is treating you is real or not. And then if you’re like, if you’re about to hand in your thesis, I don’t know if you’re planning to hand in your thesis in two months, I would definitely think about it more than once or twice if you want to change your supervisor, because it’s going to delay the process.
And you’re almost done. But it’s an option. And I think it’s always good to know this option exists that your supervisor can be changed. Then another option is to look for help from the outside, especially if there’s any kind of power abuse involved, or if you feel discriminated, there are different institutions, different departments at every university and also at the FU where you can go to.
If that happens, for example, for this podcast, for the DRS podcast, I made an interview with Professor Heberle, who’s the central ombudsperson at the FU. And there’s another, there are like ombudsperson people, ombudspeople at every department as well. So if you have an issue with your supervisor, like a conflict situation, for example, because They told you would be the first author of a paper you’re publishing together, and then you’re handing it in and you saw that they put their own name first.
You might want to talk to them directly if you have that kind of relationship, but you could always also go to the Ombuds people and get their advice on the situation. And also for cases of discrimination, there is. Is a place like an anti discrimination advice and support department at the FU where you can go to as well.
So getting help from the outside in order to get a better perspective on your situation is a good idea. Knowing that you can change a supervisor and yeah, those are your options basically here.
Amanda: Thanks. And I really appreciate that you said that you can change your supervisor. I think it’s really important to hear that because a lot of people think I started this, so I have to stick with it until the end.
And we’re going to interview some people who’ve changed their supervisor in the process in our first season of the podcast. All right. It’s not something that’s impossible. It definitely can be done and you should not suffer. And so we, when we want you to finish the PhD and still be ready to do cool things with your, with science or with other stuff as you choose and not feel like this process was just so draining.
That you’re not comfortable continuing in any workplace, right? So don’t suffer needlessly. I have a few more questions for you. The first one is, you mentioned some resources about what you can do if your relationship is really bad. What other resources or support systems are available for students who might just be having a few challenges?
And building a relationship with their supervisor, maybe it’s not terrible yet. They don’t have discrimination or they’re not feeling like they need the ombudsperson. It’s not like they, they just are not feeling so great about their relationship with their supervisor.
Marlies: Yeah, I think the exercise I mentioned in the beginning, the one about the ideal supervisor and finding out what the expectations actually are is really helpful because then you can also look at the list you made and check if which points does my supervisor what things does my supervisor not want to give me, or he or she cannot give them to me, maybe also.
That was the case, for example, with my supervisor, that I did an interdisciplinary doctorate, and I knew that there was just one discipline he wouldn’t know about. And he told me that straight away as well, in the beginning, this part, I won’t be able to help you. So my ideal supervisor, obviously, would have had this knowledge he didn’t have.
What I did in this case, I was looking for a mentor. I was participating in a mentoring program for doctoral candidates. And I just looked for a mentor who’s actually coming from that discipline to actually check that box. I couldn’t check like the, to fulfill that need I had, my supervisor couldn’t give me.
And you can do that obviously with other resources, not only with mentors, but also, for example, visiting workshops. For example, let’s say, you’re using a method and you’re not sure how to use it and your supervisor is also not able to explain it to you or he or she doesn’t have the time to do, doesn’t see him or herself in the role to explain a method to you, you can look at, is there actually, A workshop covering that topic I can visit or a course.
Can I do a course to do so in order to get that knowledge I need. So just check what other resources there are out there that could cover the needs I have that my supervisor cannot cover. And. I think that’s what I pretty much what I wanted to say. Thanks.
Amanda: I also would do a little bit of advertising here because we have some workshops in our workshop series that is connected to this podcast.
So we have some workshops that are on different topics. I know that there is one, for example, that I’m doing that’s about intercultural relationships with your supervisor. So if you’re not from Germany and your supervisor’s from Germany, and you want to come and learn about how that can affect the supervisor, that’s a
Marlies: great
Amanda: Supervisee relationship.
Marlies: People interested in this topic, I occasionally give workshops about this topic, about making the relationship with your supervisor better. And you’re free to visit workshops at other universities as well. So even if you are doing your PhD, your doctorate at the FU or at the Charité. Or at the HU, you can visit those workshops as well.
So if that’s a topic you’re really interested in, or if you have a difficult relationship with your supervisor, you might want to visit this workshop and just check out when the next one is. It’s usually either a half day or full day workshop where we do role plays as well. So we actually go, we do the things I told you about today, we go, we do the role play and we try to find out how you can make your communication better with your own supervisor.
Amanda: So my second to last question for you is, what do you do? So imagine you haven’t had contact with your supervisor in a really long time and you’re like, Oh, this is, I don’t know if I can talk to them. I feel really intimidated. You might even worry that they have forgotten about you or that they’re annoyed that you didn’t get in touch.
What can you do to make that happen? Yeah,
Marlies: that’s a very good question because I know that’s the situation many doctoral students, especially the ones who don’t work at university have. I often have that situation in coaching, that people tell me I haven’t had contact with my supervisor for a month and sometimes even for years, and the longer the wait, the harder it gets, right?
Usually what I ask them is, when was the last time you had contact? Often they still know. Or they tell me, yeah, I wrote him or her an email and they never responded. And then when I ask, did you write a follow up question? Did you write a follow up email and I never did that. So sometimes it’s just that email got lost and they didn’t respond to you because they think you’re a stupid person or they don’t like you but just because they didn’t read your email or they didn’t answer it straight away and then they forgot to do then also I think it’s important to keep in mind that they are very likely not to think about you all the time. So they don’t think, ah, this person didn’t get back to me. Maybe they think about you occasionally, but they usually, you’re probably not the biggest issue in their life. So they also, yeah, then might not be, hang on, how do I phrase it?
So I think it’s important to have that into account, that they might not think about you as much as you fear or as you think. Okay, now let’s come to actual solutions. What can you do to make it easier to get back into contact with them? It might be a good idea to find a reason to contact them. Let’s see.
Okay. It would be December, Christmas is coming up. Maybe you want to send them a Christmas card or a Christmas email and say, I just want to say Merry Christmas. And by the way, I’m still doing my doctorate. And then I think it’s also a good idea to write them what they can expect and to show engagement, to tell them what you’re working on, what you want to work on the next month, actually prove that you’re still on track that you’re still doing your stuff.
You might also want to give them an explanation. You don’t have to, but you, if you feel better doing that, you might want to do that and tell them why you didn’t, why you haven’t been in contact. Maybe you got a child and you have a very good reason why you haven’t been in contact or you have been sick or you changed jobs or whatever.
So you can give them an explanation. And I also think it’s good to Tell them what you actually want. So do you want to have a meeting? When could that happen? The next two months or whenever you feel it’s a good time? What do you want to do at that meeting? What do you want to discuss? And if you feel really insecure?
It might be a good idea to give that mail to someone and say, how did it, how does it sound? Because you also don’t really want to sound, hang on, because you also don’t want to sound too humble maybe. So just give that email to someone else and ask them, what do you think about that mail? How would you, Feel if you receive that mail being my supervisor in case you feel insecure and then you can still make some adjustments and how you phrase things in order to send out that mail with a good feeling.
Or another, hang on, I just had another idea. Another option might also be to try to meet them at an event that’s taking place anyway, which could be a colloquium or maybe a conference where you know you could meet them and get in touch that way if that’s something that feels easier for you than writing an email or making a call.
Amanda: That’s a great point. And that’s great advice. So I have one more question for you. And that is, if you would think back into your past work experience, maybe back to your doctorate or to work experience that you’ve had, where you’ve had a supervisor or a boss, what advice would you give your past self from where you are today?
So what is something that you maybe would go back and tell your past self about what they’re doing? If you could say one thing to them, if you could time travel back to them, what is one thing that you would say?
Marlies: I think I would tell myself Don’t worry too much. Have trust in that things will work out the way they are meant to work out or in a good way and that also maybe if you have a bad situation, if you don’t feel good at a given point of time, if you have a conflict situation or I don’t know, your boss or your, my supervisor told me he wasn’t happy with something, this will pass.
It’s also not. so important. Like me, my personality, I have the doctorate is not the only thing. And I think that’s something that often happens during your PhD, that it feels like the most important thing, like the thing that defines you. And you really make yourself your well being up to a certain point, dependent on that other person’s opinion about your work.
And it almost feels like the person is judging you as a person and not your work. Maybe I should delete the always because it sometimes it feels like you’re a good person or you’re a bad person. If you wrote a good chapter, a bad chapter, a good paper, a bad paper. And that’s something that also happens to me during my own doctorate that, I very much define myself by my thesis. and if other people liked it or not, or gave me good feedback or not. And I think it’s important to actually separate yourself a little bit from that, and to acknowledge that you’re already a full person, you’re a great person, no matter if other people acknowledge what you’ve done there or not.
You’ve done your best, and if you made a mistake or if something, you wrote a chapter which is not as good as it could be, you can still go back and rewrite it and make it better. So that’s always an option too. Yeah, so I think that’s the advice I would give to myself if I could travel back in time.
Amanda: Thank you, Marlies.
Marlies: Thanks a lot, Amanda.