In this episode, we talk with Dr. Ole Schulz-Trieglaff about his experiences doing his doctorate at the International Max Planck Research School for Molecular Genetics and the Freie Universität in Berlin and about his transition from academia to industry. Dr. Schulz-Trieglaff earned his doctoral degree in 2008 and now works at Illumnia in Cambridge in the UK.
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Highlights
„… I mean I would say sort of like getting getting stuck it’s just part of the experience and trying to get out of it that’s I think the whole point of doing a doctorate, I guess, you know, you – it’s just not sort of like one straight line from start to end, that that’s what I would say. It’s just sort of like getting stuck occasionally and then making mistakes and then finding a way out again. This is part of the experience. So I would say don’t despair, it’s very common -„
from our interview with Dr. Schulz-Trieglaff
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Transcript
Hi, my name is Ole and I did my PhD a long time ago. [I] graduated in 2008 in Berlin and shortly afterwards I moved to the UK. I live now in Cambridge, just a little bit north of London and I work now for a biotech and life sciences company called Illumina that specializes in genomic sequencing and I’m working here as a software developer slash bioinformatician.
Why did you decide to do a doctorate?
I really have to think back a little bit because that’s now quite some time ago, I guess – yeah I felt that a doctorate, it was just a great opportunity to sort of dig a little bit deeper and do some exploration, basically you know not to be sort of like, you know, too constrained by sort of like exams and memorizing stuff for exams but just doing some independent exploratory research. I found that the idea already back then quite fascinating, so I guess that was the reason back then why I decided to do a PhD.
Was there anyone around you that encouraged you to do a doctorate?
Yeah I do, I do remember that several of my friends were thinking about doing a PhD as well. So I think their sort of like topic was, yeah, definitely you know like something that we talked about. Yeah my advisor back then – I mean – I had an advisor for my undergraduate thesis and this person also ended up being my PhD advisor. I don’t recall right now having a lot of conversations with him about that topic to be honest. It was more sort of like among my friends and peers at university.
Can you tell us a little bit about your doctoral program?
So again this was this was all quite some time ago and I think things have changed since then but back then the Free University had the joint PhD program in bioinformatics and scientific computing with the Max Planck Institute for Genetics and the Konrad Zuse Institute. also in Dahlem, in Berlin, so I was part of this joint PhD program, I think it was called IMPRS for International Max Plank Research School. And it was the so then I think IMPRS for Computational Biology and Scientific Computing, so pretty long and unwieldy name. So it was really like, you know similar to the Graduatiertenkollege as you had a, sort of, before that, sort of like a bit more structure to your PhD with the idea that you’re doing the whole thing as a group of peers that start together and also more or less finish at the same time. And there was some coursework and classes on soft skills that had to be done back then. So that was all 2005 to 2008.
When you think about to your experience with your supervisor or superviors during your doctorate, what went really well for you?
Yeah. Again quite some time ago. but I do have the impression that I liked it. My PhD advisor was also still pretty young yet just sort of like started out at the professor, so a lot of things sort of like similar mindset you know, he was pretty approachable as well. It was not sort of like some Professor sitting far away in an ivory tower sort of like, flying above things, but he was pretty down to earth and very approachable.
When you look back on your experience with your supervisor, is there anything you wish had gone differently?
I think – what would I have changed – so I think the one thing that I remember is I was, I think, sort of like – one of the rules of the Max Planck Research School was that I was supposed to have two advisors. So I had this primary advisor at the Free University and then I was supposed to have another one that’s the Max Planck Institute. And I think what happened is I chose two advisors basically, but then the one that was based at the Max Planck Institute left a couple of months into my PhD because he got another job somewhere else. So I think, I think now looking back maybe I should have maybe sort of spent more time and effort then finding a new secondary mentor but I just, I just left then things as they are and was working only then primarily with this one person, and looking back maybe it would’ve been good to get another point of view and another mentor – just because also that was encouraged by the Max Planck School, but I just yeah, I just didn’t pursue it, and nobody’s sort of like enforced it, so it just sort of like fell by the wayside.
Doing a doctorate involves lots of decisions, which can feel really challenging in the moment – when you look back on those decisions today, what do you comes to mind – what do you think?
I mean, now looking back you know after 14 years it all seems it was all pretty straightforward (laugh). And a pretty linear thing sort of like from start to end but I do remember it was not the case, yeah. I mean I think there were a couple of dead ends there was sort of like a scientific collaboration, like a big project that I was supposed to be involved in but it didn’t yield really any meaningful results. So that was a bit of a dead-end. I managed to find sort of like other things to do and other results to graduate with and to write up a doctoral thesis but it took a little bit of time to get there. So sort of like yeah – but these are the things that, that’s what happens when you’re doing research. It’s never sort of like one straight line – there are often dead ends and where you have to sort of like backtrack and walk back out again and try a different direction. It’s just the way it is I guess. Yeah. I mean I would say sort of like getting stuck it’s just part of the experience and trying to get out of it that’s I think the whole point of doing a doctorate, I guess, you know, you – it’s just not sort of like one straight line from start to end, that that’s what I would say. It’s just sort of like getting stuck occasionally and then making mistakes and then finding a way out again. This is part of the experience. So I would say don’t despair, it’s very common – and I think having a good mentor here is also quite important. Ideally your mentor, your PhD advisor, your Doktorvater in German or Doktormutter would help you in that case and guide you a little bit. I think that’s – that should be the role of the mentor, to lend a helping hand here. But in practice it doesn’t always work like that, because your mentor is too busy, has too many projects and too many PhD students. Yeah, but these things happen – happen quite often. It’s, it’s almost normal, I would say.
From where you are today, when you look back on your time as a doctoral student, is there anything you would do differently now?
Yeah, I mean I do – I do remember that after – towards the end of the PhD when I was applying for jobs, I applied for a couple of positions and I had some, I had some rejections and some interviews that went well – some jobs that were offered to me, but some rejections as well. And I remember taking these jobs that I didn’t get, these sort of like, interviews that didn’t go so well, quite personal. And was feeling pretty down about it. And nowadays it’s just sort of like, you just shrug it off you know, like 14 years later, you think like okay whatever (laugh). You know, but then I was pretty devastated. So I think I guess, you know, it’s just part of life. You know sometimes, usually these job interviews are more sort of like a statement about the relationship between you and the job, right. It doesn’t say necessarily whether you are good at what you’re doing. It’s more sort of like whether you’re a good fit to what the interviewer’s looking for. And sometimes the interviewer doesn’t even know precisely what they are looking for. So sometimes it’s, to – do they think you are a good fit for what they think that they need (laugh). So they have a lot of like assumptions in there. So, so you’re just operating this, yeah, like nebulous area, and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t. You know that’s just the life.
What skills did you learn during your doctorate that you were able to take with you?
I would say the top most skill is sort of like a high tolerance towards frustration and (laugh) failed experiments. (laugh) That’s the most important skill that you just sort of like get used to. Stuff, you know, science basically not always going as you expect it to be, and science failing and experiments failing and ideas not working out and projects failing, you know, that that’s just the way it is, and sort of like, developing a high tolerance and sort of like an armor against these adverse events. It’s very very helpful in everything in life and yeah, so, so that’s one thing. Tolerance and, and sort of like, stamina. What else would I say? Yeah and also, I just sort of like the fact that, you know sometimes you need to, you know dig really deep to get things that you need, right. I think that’s also quite useful in the world nowadays – that things are not always like, true or false. Sometimes they can be a little bit of both and you need to dig really deep to get the whole picture. And there’s sometimes not just a yes – no answer, but it can be sometimes, also – it depends, right. So, so that’s sort of like, dealing with that – sort of like, ambiguity is also quite important later in life.
How did you get from your doctorate to where you are today?
So this was now really something where my mentor, my PhD advisor had a, quite a big impact. So I, towards the end of my PhD I really settled into this idea that I should go and continue an academic career, actually for, for awhile and so – so that was where I had my mind set to. And I was applying for – for postdocs as short, like next step – you sort of like apply for postdoctoral position somewhere. And, and then I applied for, for mainly places abroad in – in the, U- in other countries and in US and so on and so forth. But I had already this sort of like doubt in me, the way that I really wanted to stay in academia in the long-term. I just thought sort of like doing a postdoc was the next you know, next step to take, but I wasn’t really sure if I wanted to stay in academia. And then I think by – my, my mentor came back from conference. And said oh, there was this new company in – near Cambridge, that’s doing really cool things, that they’re really onto something – it’s probably worth checking that out. And then I – I we did have a couple of conversations about what it is like to work with a PhD in, for company and in industry and here it also happened that my advisor had spent some years in industry himself. So he knew kind of like, both sides of both being in academia working at the university or working in industry. And I think, you know, he could so based on his very own – his very own experience, he could tell me sort of like what that is because and what life is like, in a company. And so basically then with all this stuff I felt like okay maybe I should just check that out. Maybe I should just take a look at what in life in industry is like, and I went to this company and it sounded really cool what they were doing and sort of like a new still kind of like a smallish start up back then. And, yeah, and then I interviewed, I got a job offer. And I decided to take it. And then the company really grew a lot. Grew from sort of like a small company to a big corporation – right now we’re now 10,000 employees all over the world. So, it has really been growing a lot, been a big change over the years, and yeah so so well, has been pretty good. And I tried out different things – I worked in different teams on many different projects over the years. I spent some time in – in America. So, so it’s an American company that is based in southern California. So I spent some time in San Diego and came back to the UK. I lead now a small team of software developers and research scientists working on pretty cutting edge stuff. So it’s – it’s good. It’s an interesting job. And it’s a fun place to be in.
Can you talk about the difference between working in academia and working in industry?
Yeah a little bit more continuity, I guess, I mean I know some people that I went to university with that well were quite lucky in a way. And that went sort of like straight to a long term position in academia you know sort of like Where you, you know, you can really plan ahead a little bit but usually that’s that sort of position are a lot harder to get in academia than in industry, very often sort of like people go through several postdocs with very, you know short time horizons where you just sort of like you get a job for like a year or two, then the money runs out. The research grant is over and then you’re supposed to move on to the next job of moving cities or even countries. So it’s a life. Some – some people don’t mind that, some people enjoy that, but in general it’s sort of like very difficult to plan ahead a little bit or build some sort of like steady circle of friends or even a family. So, yeah, I think these things can happen to you in industry as well that you need to change jobs and that you need to change cities and that sort of stuff. But in general it’s easier to find jobs with a longer-term perspective then it is in academia.
What do you think the biggest difference is between doing research in academia and doing research in industry?
Yeah, yeah. It is different and they have several differences I would say. And it’s just important that people, I guess, that consider this step are aware of that I mean, I sometimes I go to sort of like career events at universities or in graduate programs and people ask exactly that question. So. I think – I think there are several differences but sort of like the ones that are standing out for me is usually in, in, in academia, in academic research. you have your project and this is yours and you own this. And you need to sort of like, get your papers out. And – and get somewhere a tenure-track position or a tenured position, right, to a professorship – that’s sort of like the career path. And in industry these things are usually a lot more complicated, I mean first of all you usually never just own a project on your own and have your corner where you work on your own with nobody else. It’s always expected or almost always expected that you work with other people. You know, maybe sometimes if you’re really like a super duper hyper genius then the company will hire you just to sit on your corner and to do only research and nothing else. But usually you’re always expected to work with other people and get something done with other people. And the company determines what you’re working on. It’s – you can, a good company will ask you and take the wishes of the employees and the preferences into consideration. But, but what exactly you have to do is, is then usually determined by the – by the company. That’s sort of like a difference, but then in academia, I think this idea of free research and doing whatever interests you is also an illusion because you just do what, you know, you can get grant money for. You’re also not picking some research topics that personally you like the most – you just, if you want to be successful, you pick the research topic that you know you can get funding for right? So it’s also like determined by someone else right, what you work on in a way. So those are the differences and yeah, I think in academia there’s all this emphasis on papers and writing papers and publishing research and in industry that’s less important, sort of like, what determines your career progression is usually much less well-defined, you know, it’s sort of like often it helps to be involved with products and help the company to release new products that, you know, bring in a lot of revenue that is always good but there are other ways as well. It it’s not sort of like a single path that leads to success and to career progression. That’s – yeah so many different reasons but that’s I think those are the most – some of the important ones.
What advice would you give someone who is thinking about doing a doctorate?
Choose your lab and choose your advisor very carefully. Because that’s an important part of your success. And don’t only talk to your advisor talk to the other students in the lab as well. And – and what they experience, because those are your peers and and very often you’re going to spend a lot of time and have a lot of interactions with them. So choosing that sort of environment it’s important just just talking to people and – and you know and making decisions based on that. Yeah, and, of course try to enjoy it. And try to enjoy the experience. That’s what I would say too.
This interview was conducted by the co-host of our podcast Amanda Wichert