In this episode, Prof. Pagel was one of the two winners of the Supervisor Award 2022, which is an award presented annually by the Dahlem Research School for exceptional supervision of doctoral researchers. Prof. Pagel talks about what makes a good, but also a bad doctorate relationship, what he himself experienced during his doctorate and what one would have to do to win him over as a supervisor. He also talked about many other things, including micromanagement, answering emails outside of working hours and what doctoral researchers can do on their part to ensure a good relationship with their supervisor. Enjoy listening to the interview!

HIGHLIGHTS

„I’m not just here to give lectures, but one of my central tasks is to supervise doctoral students. And to turn them into real scientists with solid specialist training.“

„In the natural sciences, you have to realize that if someone starts their doctorate and after about a year and a half doesn’t understand more about the subject than the person supervising them, then something has gone wrong.“

from our interview with Prof. Pagel

AUDIO

LINKS

For more information on the annual supervision award by the Dahlem Research School see here.

TRANSCRIPT

Intro

Welcome to the DRS Podcast, the podcast of the Dahlem Research School at Freie Universität Berlin. I am Dr. Marlies Klamt and today I am interviewing Professor Dr. Kevin Pagel. Mr. Pagel was one of the two winners of the Supervisor Award 2022, which is an award presented annually by the Dahlem Research School for exceptional supervision of doctoral researchers. The special thing about this award is that doctoral students nominate their supervisors themselves. If you also have an outstanding supervisor, you can find the link for the nomination in the show notes. I talked to Prof. Pagel about what makes a good, but also a bad doctorate relationship, what he himself experienced during his doctorate and what I would have to do to win him over as a supervisor.
But we also talk about many other things, including micromanagement, answering emails outside of working hours and what doctoral researchers can do on their part to ensure a good relationship with their supervisor.
And now I hope you enjoy listening to the interview!

Interview

Professor Pagel, could you please briefly introduce yourself?

My name is Kevin Pagel, I am a professor of bio-organic chemistry at the Free University of Berlin. In our research, we mainly deal with the structural investigation of complex biomolecules, especially carbohydrates and sugars, which we look at more closely using various methods. In particular, we use mass spectrometry methods to determine the weights of the molecules.

And you also supervise doctoral researchers.

I also supervise doctoral researchers. At the moment, there are eight students in my working group who are aiming for a doctorate.

You are one of the two winners of the 2022 Supervisor Award from Freie Universität Berlin. What was your first thought when you found out that you were receiving this award?

Well, first of all, I was delighted to have received this award because I actually knew that it existed. And above all, I knew that my own students had to nominate someone. And of course it’s a very special honor when your own people nominate you for such an award. It has twice the impact.

This prize is awarded for exemplary supervision of doctoral researchers. In your opinion, what constitutes good doctoral supervision?

Well, I think the most important thing when supervising doctoral researchers is to strike a balance between mentoring and providing support, but at the same time giving them enough freedom. Nobody comes to a university for a doctoral position like this who isn’t intrinsically motivated anyway. And that’s why I’m not a big fan of giving people too many guidelines. First and foremost, it’s about really getting the best potential out of everyone. And that includes giving students a certain amount of freedom.
At the same time, of course, you have to make sure that no one drifts off course and that everyone keeps their focus. And that really is a big challenge. So taking good enough care, but not taking too good care.

Yes, I definitely agree with you. When you think back to your own doctoral studies, what experiences did you have with your doctoral supervisor? Perhaps there was something that you particularly appreciated about your supervisor or perhaps something that you remember negatively, where you say I want to consciously distance myself from them today?

In my own doctorate, I actually experienced exactly what I am now trying to convey to my own students. Because I had an incredible number of opportunities. I had a great deal of academic freedom and I was also able to determine the topics I worked on to a certain extent. But what was always there was the infrastructure and the resources to actually carry out the experiments. And that was very, very productive. Because, as I said, as a young person in particular, you are bursting with ideas.
It would be downright stupid to cut it all off and limit it and not let people do it. And that was definitely the case during my doctorate. I was able to express myself very, very well and had a lot of academic freedom.

I asked you what you think makes a good doctoral relationship. What do you think constitutes poor doctoral supervision?

Well, I think the fine line between too much supervision and too little supervision cannot be overestimated. You really have to find a fine balance. I see it more often in my day-to-day work that supervisors go into micromanagement and then make really, really detailed specifications about what should be achieved when, what should be written down and how, and so on. And that often leads to any creativity, which is the greatest asset of the young people we work with, simply being cut off. And that’s exactly what we really need to prevent. And then the whole thing can become very, very productive.

You’ve already mentioned the balance between providing support as a supervisor and at the same time giving doctoral researchers their freedom. What problems can the doctoral researchers you supervise turn to you for help with and where do you perhaps also say that this is the limit, that this is something they have to manage themselves?

In my experience, one of the biggest problems that students have in their day-to-day work is writer’s block. This is really the thing that occurs most frequently by far, that the data is there, the experiments are done, everything looks great. We’ve had presentations and meetings about it and now the publication can actually be written and then it starts to get tough. And that’s exactly why we’ve actually established a kind of master plan, a kind of system for how to ultimately turn the data into a publication. This follows a relatively clear pattern of what should be written down and when.
In other words, it usually starts with a concept sketch, then the illustrations are created, then you have a meeting with everyone involved, then the illustrations are used to knit a red thread for a publication, which is then underpinned with the appropriate words in the next step in order to turn it into a publication. In my experience, this is very, very helpful for students, especially those who have major problems with writing. And in my opinion, that really is the biggest challenge for doctoral researchers at the moment.

That sounds great. So I can imagine it as a kind of handbook?

There’s even a PDF and a presentation.

And you get that right at the beginning of the doctorate or only when you start writing?

No, I give this presentation in the working group seminars at regular intervals, also elsewhere. And the students can of course also download it from the website. And it exists here, it’s all over the internal folders. And people are familiar with it and know that it exists.

Yes, great. I think it’s a really great idea, because I know that writer’s block can be a real hindrance and can drag out the doctorate unnecessarily. Even if the supervision is going well in principle, that doesn’t mean that there won’t be any conflicts. After all, a doctorate is a time when there are numerous challenges and often crises. How do you deal with it if there is a crisis between you and one of the people you are supervising?

I actually try to resolve conflicts relatively openly. In this context, resolving conflicts openly also means that everyone is allowed to have their say. It’s not always easy, but there’s little point in carrying such conflicts around forever. And I then usually try to have a clarifying conversation with the people concerned. This has actually always worked quite well so far because, as I said, intrinsic motivation is inherent in all doctoral researchers, which is why it has always worked quite well. Occasionally there is friction between the members of the working group, but this can usually be resolved relatively easily.

In other words, you would invite the relevant employees to a meeting and try to clarify this together at the table?

Exactly. A meeting is then arranged and then you try to talk to each other and solve the problem. It’s actually relatively trivial things that are usually involved. It’s about authorship, about publications. It’s about who gets to go on which business trip or who is nominated for which award. But all of that can usually be resolved. So it’s rare for really deep conflicts to arise.

And do you sometimes have to make decisions that you think I would rather not have made?

Well, there are decisions that can be unpleasant because sometimes you just can’t decide things properly. That’s just the way it is. I would say that I’ve never had to make a decision that really made my stomach hurt. Not even afterwards.

Assuming I wanted to do a doctorate with you and asked you to supervise me, what would I have to bring to the table for you to accept me as a doctoral candidate?

As a rule, the requirements are actually relatively low, because you have to imagine that if you dive really deep into a research project like this, you usually don’t know what it’s about beforehand anyway. So there are no experts at doctoral level, at least when the students are just starting out. That’s why the skills, methodological and analytical skills are very, very important to me. In other words, the basic knowledge should be halfway there and creative thinking and so on should also be present. As far as the actual techniques are concerned, you learn everything on the job. You don’t have to bring too much with you.

You mentioned methodical and analytical skills and creative thinking. How do you check that this is present in a person?

As a rule, almost nobody in my working group starts a doctorate without having seen the person in a different context beforehand. These are either research internships that people complete as part of their studies. These are presentations at conferences. You’ve talked to the person in question in other ways. And you get a really good feel for whether it works and whether people are capable of doing it. I wouldn’t feel comfortable giving applicants any tests to find out what they are particularly good at. I don’t think that would do the job justice either.

Do you occasionally accept people via initial applications? In other words, people you haven’t been in contact with before at conferences or who you don’t already know from your Master’s degree, for example?

Yes, that has actually happened several times. There has also been a situation where we advertised a position and several suitable people applied. And then there were two new doctoral researchers and not just one. That was actually quite good.

Great, if you have the funds to hire both of them, all the better.
One question I’m always asked is, if I apply to someone now, to a professor who doesn’t know me yet, and I’d like to do my doctorate with that person, should I send them a fully prepared exposé? Or do I first write who I am, maybe send a CV and then ask if there are any projects I could work on? Of course, this is also subject-specific, but what about you? Do you prefer more concrete ideas or is it more important that the person fits in with you and your working group in principle?

It’s actually unusual to come with fully developed ideas, but it’s more the case that you develop ideas together and also try to decide together where the person fits in best based on their own skills. So it’s actually more the case that I talk to suitable candidates, give them a short presentation and simply show them what topics we are researching in the working group. And then we try to identify a topic together and work out together in which direction it could go. Of course, you often have guidelines from larger research projects as to which areas to research. However, these positions are advertised in such a way that they explicitly state what the doctoral position is for.

And what do you do if you have a person in front of you and you say that the CV fits well, the skills fit well, but I somehow have a strange gut feeling or I don’t like the person, I can’t say exactly what it is, but something bothers me. Would you still put them on the shortlist or would you say that’s a direct exclusion criterion?

Well, if the person is suitable and there are no formal objections, then it definitely makes sense to shortlist them. There are rules about that. There doesn’t always have to be perfect harmony in a working group. There can also be… Minor conflicts can also be managed. That’s not the problem. Everyone doesn’t always have to be a perfect match. And in any case, you should also take such applicants into account.

For whom are you not the right supervisor?

What’s problematic is when people really expect very, very detailed supervision every day. I know there are colleagues who do this, who issue very, very detailed guidelines, where it is really clear week after week what the students have to do. I can’t do that and I don’t want to do that either, to be honest, because it’s far too restrictive for me. In other words, if someone really needs a very, very detailed work plan and supervision, then I’m probably not the right person to talk to. I provide resources, I provide the monetary means to carry out the experiments, but I’m not going to check exactly what people are doing every day.

How often do you talk to your doctoral researchers about their projects that are relevant to their doctorates?

Well, of course we have a working group seminar. That’s what everyone does. We get together once a week. There’s usually a presentation and we talk openly about topics. I meet with the doctoral researchers at least once every six months and keep a record of the whole thing with a plan. But of course we also try to exchange ideas as best we can in our everyday lives. That means I also go to the lab or to people’s desks and talk to them and try to get a feel for where things are going wrong and where they are not. It’s actually a habit I picked up a bit from one of my postdoc’s supervisors. She was very busy, had a very, very large working group and still managed to go round once a week and talk to everyone for five minutes. And that really is a great thing. I also really appreciated that.

In other words, you actually always have an overview of who is standing roughly where and can then also see if things are stuck somewhere and the person is simply not making progress.

Yes, absolutely. I mean, you have to. It’s relatively important, because the end result should be a doctorate and a failed doctorate doesn’t just reflect negatively on the doctoral researcher, but also on me. It’s actually my job to make sure that the students can complete their doctorates properly and quickly.

In an ideal world, definitely. Unfortunately, the experiences that my coachees have with their supervisors are not always like that. Especially in doctorates in the humanities and social sciences, it can sometimes happen that you don’t have any contact at all for two years if you are doing an external doctorate. From this point of view, a weekly exchange, even if it is only short, is of course very ideal and very good for the doctoral researchers.

Yes. It has to be said that many of the doctoral projects in my department are directly linked to larger third-party funded research projects. And there is always a kind of reporting obligation for these. This means that if the doctorate doesn’t work, the research project won’t work either. And then, of course, you get into trouble at some point when these reports have to be written. That’s why it’s in my own interest to make sure that something sensible comes out of it.
The most important thing is that you see it as a bit of a job. I mean, that’s why I’m here. I’m not just here to give lectures, but it’s one of my central tasks to supervise doctoral researchers. And to turn them into real academics with solid specialist training. And of course you want to do that well. And you have to think about the best way to do that.

And what does that give you on a personal level?

Above all, it’s really nice to see how people mature. They often come to me when they are just starting their Master’s degree, at the beginning of their Master’s degree and have very, very good theoretical knowledge and are totally fit. But in many other areas, academic writing, thought structures and so on, they lack a bit of experience.
And when you really supervise people for three, four or five years, sometimes over these different stages, it’s really great to see, especially when they then go out and acquire major funding projects themselves, take up great positions and write great publications.
One of my first doctoral researchers has actually become a junior professor. That’s really great to see, of course. It’s a bit of an accolade.

Now, a good relationship between doctoral supervisors and doctoral candidates is a two-way street. Perhaps you have a few tips for doctoral researchers on what they can do to build a good relationship with their supervisor and then maintain it. So what can I do specifically as a doctoral researcher to ensure that my supervisor is happy with me and what should I perhaps not do?

In any case, what is always very, very useful is to seek contact, to seek discussions. Not all the time, but I think it’s very important to keep in touch. What always goes down very, very well is actually developing your own ideas and concepts. I also see this with my colleagues. It’s something that goes down very well everywhere if the doctoral researchers really immerse themselves in the topic.
In the natural sciences, you simply have to realize that if someone starts a doctorate and after about a year and a half doesn’t understand more about the topic than the supervisor, then something has gone wrong. And interaction often takes place on this basis. And that’s really great fun, because you’re dealing with experts once people have got to grips with a topic.

Does that mean you still learn a lot from your doctoral researchers?

Absolutely. So it’s not just the subject matter, but sometimes it’s simply the creativity, the train of thought that is completely different from my own. And sometimes you scratch your head and ask yourself, what is this actually about? And then at some point you realize it’s a really great idea, let’s do it.

How do you deal with the fact that you are now working on publications together with your colleagues, for example, and you have different working styles or different approaches? For example, if you have a deadline for a paper, there are people who do everything at the last minute and others who try to finish as far in advance as possible. How do you deal with this when you have different approaches?

Yes, I actually adapt a bit to the needs of the doctoral researchers. I actually experience this on a daily basis. There are students who come to me with their manuscripts four weeks before the deadline, simply to have enough time, and I then try to process them quickly. But if the house is on fire and a paper has to be finished within three days at the very end, then I get stuck in too. It’s just very different. I actually try to meet everyone’s needs in that respect.

How do you handle communication after official working hours, i.e. in the evening, at weekends, on public holidays?

I actually saw this once from a colleague in England. I don’t have this in my own email signature, but I tell my employees this and they all know it. Sometimes it suits me very well to send an email at nine in the evening. But that doesn’t mean that I expect it to be answered at nine in the evening. Just because it suits me doesn’t mean I expect the others to do the same.

In other words, you also rely on clear communication in this case and say that I do it and don’t set an implicit example, which is what it is in principle when you set an example, but I make it very transparent that it’s something I do because it fits into my daily routine, but that I don’t expect anyone else to do the same.

Exactly, that’s how I actually communicate it. Everyone in my working group actually knows that too. Especially when you have a family, you often have to answer certain things in the evening. Or you’re on a business trip and you quickly reply from the train and so on. And everyone knows that I don’t expect anyone to reply to an email at eight o’clock on a Friday evening. That’s clear to everyone. If I get an answer on Monday morning, that’s perfectly fine.

Do you see a change in the role of doctoral supervisors? I’m thinking of a longer period of time, such as the last 10 or 20 years, but perhaps also the last few years due to covid.

Yes, I think the trend over the last 10 or 20 years is that hierarchies have generally become much flatter. In the past, it was often seen as my doctoral student. Today, the view is actually more that you work together with the doctoral students and that you build things up for each other and so on. And that’s not just the case in my working group, I think it’s the case everywhere, that it’s all becoming a bit flatter.
Due to covid… We’re not even feeling the direct effects so much here at doctoral student level. We’re seeing it more with Master’s students, because they’re just slowly finishing up. And it’s mainly the practical skills where more supervision is needed at the moment. That is noticeable.

How do you explain that?

It certainly has to do with the fact that far fewer practical courses could take place in the laboratories themselves during the coronavirus period. Practical work was already massively restricted. Another major problem was that students were no longer able to interact with each other as actively because they no longer saw each other. There’s simply a difference between making appointments by phone or online and simply meeting in the corridor and talking about things. And that already leads to major restrictions and especially the research internships, which are quite common here, where students sometimes work on a topic in a working group for 15 weeks, were already extremely limited during the corona period. And you notice that.

Mr. Pagel, is there another important point that we have forgotten that we should definitely address?

I think it’s really important… At every stage of academic training, there are certain criteria that are used to measure or evaluate. It’s about publications and grades and things like that. And I sometimes have the feeling that one aspect that is much, much more important in other European countries is falling behind, namely the ability to organize your own funding. In my opinion, this is actually still a little underdeveloped in Germany. I know this from international colleagues, where it is quite common for doctoral students to be much more actively involved in writing applications, in writing their own grant applications and so on and so forth.

Is that something you are also trying to actively promote?

Absolutely. I also help people to write their own proposals. This skill becomes extremely important later on, especially if you want to stay in science, because a great proposal that you get through sometimes counts as much as five good publications or ten. This is a very, very important criterion for your future academic career. And you can’t start practicing this early enough.

Is that also a point that you address at some point when someone tells you that they have decided that they would rather go into industry after their doctorate, that they just want to get it over with as quickly as possible, or that they are really aiming for a professorship, that you then also try to support people in different ways and provide different kinds of assistance?

Absolutely. Of course, it’s really important to focus a little on the professional goals of the person in question. Sometimes I even assign topics in this direction. So it does happen that someone comes to me and says I want to do a doctorate and then do this and that in industry. Then we sometimes even select the topics where the whole thing would fit well. Because the research that is required in industry or the skills that are required there are not always completely the same as in an academic laboratory.

Mr. Pagel, thank you very much for this wonderful interview.

Thank you very much.

Outro

After this very informative conversation, I would just like to remind you once again that you can also put your supervisor in the running for the Supervisor Award. This happens once a year and we provide information about the deadlines on the website and in the newsletter. So it’s best to register directly so that you don’t miss the next round.
On the website for this episode, we also link to the Supervisor Award page, where you can see who has won the award since 2011, if you’re curious.