In this episode we talk to Dr. Anselm Spindler, a writing coach and workshop facilitator. He shares tips and ideas for how to manage academic writing, how to deal with common challenges when writing your thesis, and what to do if you get stuck. We also talk about some of the writing events the DRS offers and how they might benefit doctoral students.

Audio

Download or listen to the audio version of the podcast here.

Highlights

„….share your writing with more people more often and sooner and use other people’s feedback to work on your text and to reflect your writing. Don’t just sit there and work on your own for a very long time and at some point in the end submit it. But yeah, talk to people about your writing and it doesn’t have to be your supervisor or even an expert from your field. In a sense, it could be anyone and it will be useful for your writing process and for your actual text“

from our interview with Dr. Anselm Spindler

Links

Find useful links on the subject of today’s podcast and more resources for help during your doctorate here.

transcript

Welcome. If you could start off by telling me a little bit about yourself, maybe a little about your background and what you do now.

Yeah, sure. Thank you for inviting me to your podcast. My name is Anselm. I live in Frankfurt, the southern one from your perspective, not the eastern one. And I got my PhD in philosophy. And I also used to work as a research assistant at Goethe University in Frankfurt, where I used to teach and do my research. Nowadays, I’m a freelance coach and workshop instructor, and I mainly work with PhD students who write their dissertations in any one of a broad spectrum of academic disciplines.

Excellent. So, when you think about how you got from doing your doctorate to working as a coach, could you just tell us a little bit about that process or that transition? We’re going to talk about writing in just a moment, but I’d really love to hear a little bit about your career before we get started.

I think the word transition is spot on. It was a big transition for me. At some point during my doctorate, especially in the early stages, I was really thinking and wanting to be in an academic career. So, at some point, I really thought that I will be in the university my whole life basically. And that’s why I’m doing the PhD. But things went a different way. And I went a different way. So it’s a combination of these two factors. And I really enjoy what I’m doing now because I’m still in contact with the academic world. And I really like writing and academic writing specifically. At the same time, I feel I’m in a good place because I am no longer working in the academic world. Because I think it it really wasn’t for me in certain aspects of it anyway. And yeah, it was a big transition.

Thank you. So when you think about writing, what motivated you to work with students who are stuck or having challenges with writing. And maybe you could tell us a little bit about those challenges that doctoral students face. And a little bit about why do you think that this is something that you enjoy working with?

I think the main idea behind my work is that the workshops create a space where you can talk openly and freely about your writing process. And I always felt that this space was missing in the academic world, or at least very rare. People talk a lot about their writing or their text in the academic world, at least in my field in the humanities. But they are typically very complicated and charged situations. So you’re talking, giving a talk at a conference or you’re presenting your work to a funding institution, or you’re talking to your supervisor who will be grading your PhD. And so these situations tend to be a little bit overloaded. And I felt, and it’s my experience from what people report in my workshop, a simple space where you can talk about your writing without having to present your work to others, without being judged or graded is really helpful and is really surprisingly rare in the typical working environment of PhD students and it was in my working environment back then. So the idea was just to create this kind of space.

When students come to you and they say that I’m having trouble with writing or I’m stuck, what’s really happening? What are the problems that they’re facing? It’s a big word, I’m stuck. But what is it really that makes people get stuck when they’re writing?

Yeah, it is a big word, but I think it’s really accurate in the sense that people do feel stuck. And it’s really unpleasant for them. And the roots of the problem are really varied. You have been asking about challenges. In my experience, there are two main challenges, you could say. The first one is – it’s logistical, if you will. So simply finding the time to write in a demanding working environment, which the university is. And the other challenge is a little bit more psychological, I think. It has to do with dealing with expectations. And also with the simple fact that a PhD is a kind of exam. You and your work will be evaluated. And for most people, the stakes are really high in terms of their academic self-understanding, in terms of academic careers. And also in terms of the personal energy and time that they invest. And that can make the writing really difficult because so much is coming together when you’re writing a PhD. It’s not just any old text.

So imagine that I’m a student and I’ve come to you and I have a problem. Maybe I’m having trouble writing the actual text, maybe I’m having trouble finding time. Maybe I feel frustrated as you just said with this feeling of, oh, it’s got to be really good. Do students often know what they’re dealing with, or do they come to you and just say, I don’t know what’s going on?

That’s a really good question. I think, because many people who find that their writing isn’t going as well as they would like, they have a certain tendency to focus on solutions. So what do I need to do in order to get back to into the flow of writing? And I think I find it very understandable because it’s an unpleasant situation to be in. But my approach is to invite people to simply start by talking a little bit to me or to someone else about their problem and really describe it in detail. What is it that’s not working? How often does it happen? What could the possible causes of the problem be? And I think there’s a variety of reasons why people do get stuck and sometimes they are, a bit more mundane. Sometimes they are a bit deeper actually. And it’s really worth spending some time investigating what is my situation, how do I feel? Sometimes people overlook how they feel in a particular situation. And like I said, it’s a challenging working environment and it can have all sorts of effects. I think once you started to investigate a little more closely what the causes of the problem might be, the solutions are really not that difficult to find. It’s more about really spending the time with yourself in a way and explaining yourself and situation to someone. And oftentimes people find those solutions really quickly once they’ve started to describe the problem to someone else.

That sounds like it would be really helpful. And I think it’s something that a lot of people probably deal with, being alone, but having the feeling that there’re not so many people around in their work that they can really talk to about these things. And that brings me to your workshops. So what you described sounds a lot like it would work in a coaching setting of one on one, how does it work when you’re in a group of people? And in these workshops that you have at the Dahlem Research School or in other settings, what do you do to help people who are already facing challenges with their writing?

Yeah, it really is a different setting if you compare it to the coaching, like one on one situation. And there are different workshops for different challenges, in a sense. So I’m offering workshops on specific writing techniques, for instance, and also on specific parts of the text like the introduction and the conclusion. And also, a workshop on self-organization and academic writing, which in my mind includes writer’s block and procrastination. In my mind these are connected with the broader topic of self-organization. But what my workshops have in common is on the one hand that they are really based on a practical approach so people have a chance to work on their current writing project in the workshop in one way or another. So they typically make some progress with their actual project, and it’s not just theory input to take home. And another thing is that the workshops are designed in such a way that people have the chance to get quite a lot of feedback and input for their specific writing project and their specific situation. Input from me and feedback from me, but also from their peers. And that’s the third point I’d like to make. I’m working under the assumption that the people who come to my workshops are already experienced academic authors. They have written texts, they have acquired quite a lot of knowledge about academic writing in their field, they have a lot of experience already, so they’re not beginners. Part of the idea of the workshop is to really mobilize that experience and share it with others in order to decide what the next steps in my project might be. And a lot of it is already there because people bring so much into the workshops, in terms of writing strategies, things they’ve tried out. Maybe they did work, maybe they didn’t work, but maybe it works for someone else. And so it’s a lot about sharing experience and getting feedback from other people who are also academic professionals and academic authors.

I really love that. I think that is so important also for so many researchers early in their career really second guess themselves. And I love the idea of having them support each other because I think that also, as you said, gives them the idea, reminds them that they really are experts in their fields and not all just at the very beginning. You have tons of knowledge and experience already even at the beginning of your PhD.

And also, I think it connects to what you said earlier that many people who write their PhD have the feeling that they are maybe not isolated but basically working on their own. Which may be also have to do with the fact that in academic working culture the idea is that you have to do it on your own, which is not mistaken, obviously, but it can lead to a feeling that you’re really alone with your problems and in my workshops and probably in yours as well, people discover that other people, sometimes from completely different academic fields are really struggling with the same problems. That feels good in itself. And you can also share the burden of looking for solutions. You don’t have to come up with all the solutions by yourself.

That is so important. And really, I think one of the aims of the workshops at the Dahlem Research School and in the Berlin University Alliance altogether is to get everybody to come together and experience and see we’re not alone, and there’s so much that you have in common with others, even if you feel like you’re really stuck and alone. And so that is one of the things why I really like to encourage people to come to the writing week or the retreat. And for the writing week a benefit of it is that you can join unlike the retreat at any point in your doctorate, that’s correct, right? Do you want to tell us a little bit about the writing week and what you do there?

Yeah, sure. It’s a full week. It consists of, on the one hand, writing workshops slot, rather short three-hour writing workshops on different topics that have to do with academic writing or different aspects of academic texts. And in the afternoon, it’s basically writing time for the people. The participants actually work on their texts in writing groups or writing tandems. And they can also attend coaching sessions there, which take place in parallel to the writing sessions. That’s the main idea to have some input and workshops and exercises on academic writing on one hand. And on the other hand, it may sound simple, but just time to write. And to also have connected time to write like a full week. A lot can be done in a full week and typically in their everyday life, these kinds of weeks are, for many people rather rare. They do a lot of stuff in the university and the university is very good at inviting people into all sorts of projects and attending talks and then sometimes it’s difficult to have a concentrated block of time for your writing. In my mind, it’s a way of really prioritizing your writing. My writing project is really important. That’s why I’m spending the full week on it. And that’s what the writing week in my view is really good for.

Can you tell us a little more about tandems? You mentioned that before, but I would love to hear about that. And maybe a little bit about why you think they’re useful and helpful for doctoral students.

I find that question really interesting because my impression is that sometimes people have different views about why they are useful. One thing some people say very quickly is that a writing group or writing tandem is good because it stimulates their discipline, so they stick to whatever their writing plan was. And to be honest I’m rather skeptical of the term discipline in this context because it suggests to me anyway that people are somehow unwilling to do their academic work. And that’s just something I don’t see. It’s people are doing a lot of stuff and they are certainly not lazy and that’s somehow in my mind connected to the idea of discipline. What I think, and that’s my alternative suggestion, an alternative to the discipline discourse, if you will, I think writing groups and writing tandems provide structure and resonance. And by structure, it is very simply, when will I write this week and for how long? And by resonance, is there anyone out there paying attention to what I’m doing? And I think many people who have difficulties in their writing project. They are not lacking discipline, but they are lacking and what they want is structure and resonance. Some feedback from other authors and really some structure in which to work. And if I can add just one more thought to this. Many people many PhD students are also engaged in teaching. So they’re teaching seminars and obviously and naturally they have an arranged time for the seminar. So my seminar is on Thursdays at 10 o’clock and that’s very natural because they want others to come to the seminar. And for some reason people don’t do that as often for their writing. So why not say my writing time is on Tuesdays from 10 to 12. These kinds of structures are really helpful to support continual writing habits and a writing group is the easiest way to do it because it’s fun to meet others, you have a chance to talk, you don’t feel alone. It’s very easy to arrange in times of video calls. And yeah, it’s just another way of sharing the burden of self-organization.

That’s fantastic. I love this idea that students shouldn’t think that they don’t have this discipline because I hear this a lot in my work as well. People say I’m good at this. I’m bad at self-organization or, I don’t know what I want from my life and my career. And I often think, how much time have you given yourself to actually sit down and think about these things? Or do you have time to be organized? If you don’t give yourself the time, then it can be a huge challenge. It doesn’t mean that you’re not good at it. I think this is so important. And so I want to pick that back up. It’s not that you’re not doing a good job. It’s that you’re so busy that you haven’t actually have to sit down and make space for writing in order to be able to say that you are stuck.

Yeah.

I want to ask you, what would you suggest? What kind of, we mentioned a lot of mindset, ideas or how would you change the way you think about it? Are there, setting time aside and maybe a writing group, other techniques or tools that you would suggest that students try if they’ve gotten stuck? Anything else where you’d say this, maybe one or two small things or big things that you say would be worth trying out if they feel like they’re having trouble writing?

I’ll start with my favorite one. I’m not sure if it works really well for most people, but for some people in my experience, and it’s creative writing. And it’s something that academics, in my experience, don’t do so often. And it’s something that is not just fun to do, but I think the deeper truth behind it, if you will, is that writing really is a matter of training. So if you see an academic who is pretty good at writing something, an academic text, under pretty much all circumstances, like between two seminars or between a seminar and a conference, I have one and a half hours to spare and some people are able to write something during these one and a half hours. And it’s not that they are geniuses. They might be, but I think they have a lot of experience and a lot of training. It’s a bit like like juggling or speaking French. The more often you do it and the more stuff you try out, the easier it gets. And this is also true, I think, of the transition from non-writing to writing, and that’s what many people find difficult. And creative writing, just, for instance, writing a short story, a really short one, just without any preparation, just gets you into the flow of writing, the words begin to come, and then it might be easier to work on an academic text. And it also introduces it may introduce some variety into your writing just like trying out stuff with really low stakes. And it’s fun, and I think it’s instructive.

What ideas do you have to get someone to start doing creative writing that maybe has never done that before? Because that sounds like a really great way to get into writing if you’re maybe having some trouble with it to take the pressure off of it. What are some things that you might suggest that students could do who don’t know where to start? And they say, oh, creative writing, that sounds great, but how do I do it?

That’s a great question because it has to do with creative writing specifically, but I think it’s also connected to an interesting aspect of academic writing. I think what’s really challenging is the situation where you are sitting in front of an empty sheet of paper and you have a pen and you think now I’m going to write something creative. And this in itself can be a really challenging situation because like you said, you don’t know where to start. And what I find makes this transition from not writing to writing easier is to provide some structure and a specific task just in order to get started. For instance when I do creative writing in my workshops, there are really strict time limits. Sometimes one of the exercises we do is called five-word stories and it’s short stories that people write in 90 seconds, which is an amazingly short amount of time. And the good thing is that you don’t have time to think too much. You simply begin to write and that’s actually what most academics or many academics in my experience find really difficult to simply start writing without thinking first. Oh, I have to read 68 books about the topic before I can even begin to think about writing, then I have to come up with a really good project outline and so on and so forth, which is in for academic writing. It’s the natural process but it can make it really difficult to connect with your creativity and to say, I’m simply going to start writing something and I will later look at it and see what needs improving or what might still be missing. Just setting yourself and coming back to creative writing, setting yourself small and simple and doable tasks. Yeah, a short story, for instance, which contains five keywords that you’ve picked earlier. And it makes it easier to choose from the infinite variety of possibilities that are out there. And once you have more experience, you could decide to write more freely and just go to the park with your notebook and write whatever comes to your mind.

I have a question about this idea of just writing. I know a lot of people when they start or they said, Okay, when I started writing, I felt stuck because I was thinking. Okay, this has to be really good, and I have to use it. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the benefit or not ,however you see it, of writing. Stuff that you’re going to get rid of, needs everything that I write to be good or is it okay, in academic writing if I find myself writing tons of material that I don’t use or is that not a good approach. What do you think about that?

Again, that’s a good question and a difficult one, I think, because on the one hand this idea that my text has to be really good and it has to be a text that others approve of my fellow researchers, the fellow experts in my field. I want them to maybe, even if they don’t agree with me, agree with what I want to say specifically. I want them to say that the text is simply good academic quality. And this expectation, which is justified, makes sense in the system, but it can really block up your creativity and really limit the scope of possibilities that you even consider in your research. And maybe you have tons of ideas, but you’re really narrowing down the range because you think all people won’t like that. And that’s a silly thought and it’s not going to work anyway. And getting yourself to simply start writing might be a way of exploring these possibilities and only later to really edit the text and produce what will be the finished product. And I think that’s only one side of the issue. The other is you mentioned that some people choose to write a lot of stuff that they will not use in the end. I find that a really useful technique. Partly because you’re probably be writing in two documents, if you will, literally or metaphorically. So you’re writing stuff under the assumption that not necessarily everything of it has to go into the finished text. And this can make it easier to explore things and to really find what you want to say in the writing process. And sometimes people get stuck because they are writing text under the assumption that the actual sentences they are writing will be the ones that the readers will later read and evaluate. And this adds a lot of stress to the writing process. And I think it can help to really divide the different stages of the writing process and say, I’m in the early stages. It’s about exploration and not about polishing the text or revising the text or checking it for mistakes. And yeah, that can help get into the flow of writing and really explore your ideas. And at the same time, there’s one more thought I’d like to share because some people also do use this technique of producing a lot of text and then they themselves in a situation where they have produced a ton of notes and find it really difficult to decide what goes into the text and what not – what does not go into the text and this too can be a real challenge too, if you overdo it with this technique and, so to speak, if you reduce a lot of notes, you might feel lost at some point snd may make it more difficult to come up with a text that leaves certain things out. For some people it’s hard to leave stuff aside.

I really enjoyed hearing you talk about the possibilities of doing things maybe one way or another way and I think that’s really important for students to hear because it’s often possible for students to feel like, „I’m doing it this way, but someone else is doing it that way. And am I doing it the right way?“ or, „I’m writing a lot and my colleague is only writing when they know exactly what they’re going to say.“ And I think that it’s good to hear from others that there are many ways to get to the same goal. And in connection to that, I would love to know the answer to a question. There are a lot of students in my workshops that come up and ask me, „What digital tools do you use?“ I get asked, „I don’t do writing workshops, but I get asked this question a lot anyway. What writing tools should I use? And how should I approach tools?“ And I would love to hear from you a little bit about what you think about writing tools. Do you have digital tools that you love to work with and that you suggest students test out or try, or are you more of a pen and paper person, and what do you think the benefit is of both of those or either of those?

I get that question too, in my workshops: „Which tools can I use?“ or „Should I use even?“ And I believe that you should use the tools that are useful for the specific task you have or for the specific challenge that you want to overcome. And I have two examples for that. The first one is the difference between handwriting and machine writing, if you will. You were talking about handwriting in your question, and I think it is a useful tool or it can be. Writing by hand in specific situations, because one feature of machine writing with my computer or with my laptop, is that I have the ability to edit my text while I’m writing it, and I still have a clean document. It still looks very good. And if I do that in handwriting, if I keep crossing out words and then writing something new, it gets messy really quickly. And one way to take advantage of this difference could be that you say it’s a good thing in handwriting that I can’t edit my text all the time. And that could help me to tell my inner critic to spend some time in the cafe and come back later. And during that time, I have time just to write something and to write a complete version of the text before going back and rereading it and editing the text. Handwriting can really help to differentiate between different stages in the writing process. The second example that I thought of is collaborative writing where you’re writing a text together with others. And there’s a ton of digital tools out there for this and they all have different features. In my view, it’s really useful to spend some time in the group to figure out which tool is best suited for the writing purpose and the kind of group you are. Maybe you want to work in a document simultaneously. Then there are some tools that provide this service or this function and others that don’t. So make your choice on the basis of the kind of task that is ahead of you and the kind of group you are. That would be my general thoughts on writing tools. Try to describe what you need and then pick your tool.

I think this is great advice. I feel like it’s really easy to get excited about all these apps that are out there. And then, in the end, do we actually need all of the functions? This is a huge issue in productivity. You can really easily feel like, „Okay, now I’ve got to learn this app and I don’t actually need it, or do I even need all the things that it’s offering me?“ So fantastic.

Can I add something to this? Because you’re making a really important point, in my view, because sometimes it is suggested that these tools are useful and making things easier, but sometimes it’s the opposite. They make things a bit more difficult, and it’s only later in the process that I even know or learn about that. And one example that just came to my mind is that I once had a PhD student, or she was a postdoc actually whhen she was in my workshop, and we were talking about digital writing tools. And she said that she was writing her PhD with Google Docs and it was really late in the process when she discovered that it’s not possible to download the document once you have crossed a certain number of pages, and it caused her several heart attacks and it was nerve-wracking. She only discovered it really late in the process and it can be really unpleasant. And just the thought of having all your text deleted because of some software glitch is terrible. And so like you say, it’s not evident that all the programs help all the time. So it’s a really good idea to think about what do you want it to do, and which software really does what you do want it to do.

This is very important advice and a good approach. I think a solid approach to digital tools. So I have just two more questions for you. And the first one is. What do people say when they leave your workshops? And I’m going to ask you this, I know it’s a little bit of a challenging question to answer as a trainer, as a workshop facilitator, but I think sometimes students are hesitant to participate in workshops because they don’t know what am I going to leave with knowing how to do. What takeaways do your participants have when they leave your workshop? What do they say about their writing process or about their experience?

One thing many people do is point to a specific writing technique or an idea or a tool that they learned about or rediscovered in the workshop, and they say that was really useful for where I am right now in my writing process. And what most people say actually is that it was a good group experience for them. It renewed their motivation to work and think about their writing project. It’s a lot of encouragement and a lot of feedback they take away. And just a lot of inspiration, and that’s typically what’s coming from the group as a whole and not simply or even mostly from me as a workshop instructor. And that’s actually what most people say. It was a good group experience and it connected me again to my writing and my research.

That’s great. And I think I would say it is not always easy to do that. So I would say it does come from you as a trainer and that also underlines what you said earlier about the importance of working together in groups or group experience of talking to each other about writing. That’s great. So I have one more, my very final question for you. We usually like to ask our guests on the podcast if they were to go back to the beginning of their own experience in writing or in the university or in your case in your doctorate if you could give yourself advice. So you’re time traveling back to the very beginning, what advice would you give yourself, maybe about the writing process. Maybe about the whole thing from where you are today. And obviously we can’t change what we do in the past, but what would you tell yourself if you could time travel?

Let me think about that. Maybe, yeah, there’s a number of things, but the one that stands out really is to share your writing with more people more often and sooner and use other people’s feedback to work on your text and to reflect your writing. Don’t just sit there and work on your own for a very long time and at some point in the end submit it. Talk to people about your writing and it doesn’t have to be your supervisor or even an expert from your field. In a sense, it could be anyone and it will be useful for your writing process and for your actual text.

Thank you very much and thank you for the wonderful advice that you’ve given.

This interview was conducted by the co-host of our podcast Amanda Wichert

In this episode, we’ll hear from Anna Figoluschka, Founder Advisor, and Teresa Kollakowski, technology transfer officer at Profund Innovation at the Freie Universität Berlin. Learn what the transfer offices at the university can do for you as a researcher and find out about the benefits of having a chat with the transfer office team even if you don’t already have a clear idea of how to bring your research to the market. We also talk about how fields like social science and humanities can benefit from transfer support at the university. Listen or read the transcript below!

Audio

Download or listen to the audio version of the podcast here.

Highlights

„I guess, everyone who is in science or who’s doing his or her PhD right now, at least I imagine, is in science because he or she wants to have an impact. They want to invent something or find out some new things and make the world a better place. I know that’s quite often used phrase. But yeah, if you want to have an impact, society and the market need to know about your results. They have to get out of the drawer next to your desk and come to the public. And so, we will support you with that either in the way of bringing you together with companies or to support you to found your own company.“

from our interview with Profund Innovation

Links

Find useful links and information on life after the doctorate here.

transcript

I’m so excited to be here today with you guys. I’m going to just ask you to briefly introduce yourselves and tell me a little bit about who you are and why you’re here with us. I’ll start with you.

Teresa: Hello, I’m Teresa Kolakowski, working as technology transfer officer at Freie Universität Berlin at Profund Innovation. I support industry-university collaborations and help researchers to get in contact with enterprises.

Anna: Hello. I’m Anna Figulushka. I’m Founder Advisor at Profund Innovation, Freie Universität Berlin. I’m there for any student or alumni or PhD candidates who would like to find out if they want to found a startup. They can come up to me and I will try to find a funding program or will try to give them advice on a business model.

That sounds very exciting. I want to just start off with this question: What is Profund and what is transfer? What do you do?

Anna: I can start with the Profund Innovation institution. We are there for the transfer of research ideas into society and economy. And to find interesting and good ideas in the university and outside of the university that may be the right ideas to found a company with. So we support any researcher who comes up to us and finds a connection to our own university, to see whether they can found a startup. We are a team of almost eight people that work in different areas of that topic, either innovation management or transfer management or startup support. We have a huge, nice building in Dahlem, close to the Freie Universität, which has 25 offices for startups and labs where researchers can still try to find the right formula for their idea and where we give them support of different kinds: their workshops or coaching or an office space to work together with their team. That’s what we do.

If you guys could maybe just tell me really briefly: What is transfer?

Teresa: So I would say in general transfer means we have knowledge and technology transfer in the meaning of bringing your research results into society and/or the market. That you don’t just stay in your scientific community, scientific bubble, but that you make your knowledge accessible for other persons, for the public, for people like you and me.
That you can do either in the way of working together with other stakeholders or in the way of founding your own company.

I would love to kind of ask you guys how you got into this and I want to start with you, Teresa. How did you get into the topic of working on transfer and why is this an important topic for you?

Teresa: Thanks for that question. Well, in my master’s degree I studied science and technology studies at Humboldt University, which was about scientific results and what we are doing with them. How to generate them and what does science do for society. After that it was quite clear for me to work at a university, at a place where scientific knowledge is produced, where I can work with scientists, researchers.
So I started working as Grant Advisor at Freie Universität four years ago. There I was responsible for the Department of Veterinary Medicine and the Department of Biology, Pharmacy, and Chemistry, and supported the researchers to apply for funding at the DFG Deutsche Forschungsgemeinschaft or the BMBF Bundesministerium für Bildung und Forschung for a European grant. All the stuff you can imagine that researchers have to deal with every day. I really liked that job, but I always asked myself what’s happening after that. So you have this three years project and what’s coming next. What do you do with the results? How to get it into society, into the market.
And then I saw this open position at Profund Innovation and thought: Okay, that’s my chance to change the position and support researchers not only with the grants and the basic research, but to also help them to bring their ideas, their results into the society market and do something with it, to have a use case, have an application. Do not just publish it in journals, but bring a product into the market or in the health sector, to do something good for society and heal infections or anything.

Thanks. It’s very important because in our podcast series we’ve talked to a lot of people about the challenges of the academic job market. I really like to bring this idea that there are many ways to have a career even if you go into research. And I think this is a really interesting option for researchers who are thinking about what do I do after my PhD or after my doctorate. So I’d love to hear from you, Anna, as well. What got you into this topic? What made you want to work on this with students at the university?

Anna: Well, I didn’t study at Freie Universität Berlin, but I studied communication design. And I guess that is something that made me, or influenced me in that way that I always thought I want to work on something new or find something new. That’s what designers do. They find and they organize ideas. Sowhat I did afterwards were many steps. I worked at a pharmaceutical company. I worked for an IT service company and I founded three companies as well. The last one was an app and that’s almost six years ago. Since four years I’m at Profund Innovation and I’m supporting startups. Mainly startups coming from Freie Universität. Well, ideas that evolved from research at Freie Universität, but also any others can draw a connection. That is why I’m here and I’m really happy, that it’s such a creative work. Because on the way the idea may change and I’m always happy when it comes to a complete new perspective and to find a niche in the market.

So when we think about transfer in general and this idea of starting a startup, what do you think you would say if there was a researcher, an early career researcher, who says: I see no connection between what I’m doing right now. I’m in a lab. How do I not have any cool ideas. So how is this relevant for me? What would you tell them to help them to understand to come to you guys, or maybe even that it’s worth having a conversation about transfer?

Teresa: Actually, it’s always good having a conversation because we have innovation scouts in our team. They help you to identify the innovation potential and use cases or applications that you might not have in mind because you’re thinking only of your lab or the researchers in your field. Our innovation managers will be happy to invite you for a coffee here, have a conversation, ask you if have you ever imagined that someone from another field could be interested in your results, because maybe it helps them to improve their ideas. And then, yes, sometimes you get new inputs. For instance, we had one researcher from the department of earth science working with dust in the atmosphere. And she always thought: Well, I’m doing basic research and there isn’t any application for that. But with the help of our innovation manager, we identified photovoltaic is quite interesting because the technique doesn’t work if dust is on the PVC. So that’s a use case she never thought of before. And now we think of working together with a company or bringing up a project together.

That’s a fantastic example. I would love to hear if there are any other examples that you guys can think of where people came to you and maybe really had a hard time imagining this connection between startups or developing a cool idea outside of research. And they were able to come out with maybe not even a startup idea, but just a new idea, a benefit to them talking to you guys.

Anna: Yes, I can think of another idea. There was one PhD candidate. She was at the Department of Linguistics at Freie Universität, at the Department of Romanian Philology. She was working on parts of words and found out that the pronunciation in Vietnamese is so very difficult, so different to other languages and it’s so difficult for Vietnamese to learn German. And she developed a way how to teach Vietnamese people to learn German. And then she met her later co-founder. He was a data scientist and he said, „Oh, it’s possible to train an AI on how to learn German and make Vietnamese people learn German quicker.“ And so they worked together and now found a company called Silbi. And they’re training their AI model successfully and now found investors to invest in the company. That’s another example. And, of course, we know many more because there are coming a lot of ideas into our office.

Very cool. Say, I am really new to this idea about coming up with an idea, and I’m not really sure, about how this might work. What process would I go through if I come to you? What might that look like to develop an idea into something long term?

Anna: As Teresa already mentioned, first it is maybe a coffee with the innovation managers on like: Hey, I’m working on a project at the lab or wherever in the university. Then the innovation manager would say: Hey, I’ve got a connection to an existing company, or why don’t you work in the area of renewable energies, for instance? And then, someone would come to me and we could already work on a business case, on a business model. We normally use the business model canvas, which is a training or model to easily evaluate whether your idea does fit into a market. You will find out whether there’s a target group. You will find out what stakeholders are there, which interest groups, and who would pay for the product in the end. What else needs to be done? Does it need development? Maybe a data scientist works on the development of the product or does it need a lab, or is it hardware which you need to be connected to any company in our network? We provide you with all kinds of contacts. We kind of give you homework and meet up again and again until we think: Alright, now it’s a good point to find the matching funding program. And there are quite a few different ones. There are different ones for the transfer part than for the startup part. For instance, for startup ideas there’s the Berlin Startup Stipendium. It’s a program that is for early-stage ideas. When you’ve already found: Yes, there’s the market for my idea. And you know already: Okay, I need to work on a prototype to test it in the market., then the Berlin Startup Stipendium is a really good thing. You get a grant, a stipend for up to four team members for half a year or even for 12 months. That’s around 2,300 euros. You get workshops and a lot of support from us and you get connected to our big ecosystem, which I haven’t mentioned yet. We call it Science and Startup. It’s the ecosystem of all three Berlin universities in cooperation with Charité. And we at Freie Universität Berlin have the healthcare and prevention startups in our cluster. There are two other clusters, which are technologies and materials. That’s of course connected to Technical University. And sustainability and society is connected to Humboldt University. And in cooperation with Charité we do the healthcare part. And then there’s another funding program. It’s called EXIST. There is the EXIST Founders Business Grant, which is a stipend for 12 months, which supports teams for up to three team members with a stipend of up to 3,000 euros for PhDs and material money of 30,000 euros and coaching money of 5,000 euros. And during the projects the teams are always in our house and our startup Villa and/or in other houses of other university and incubators, depending on where they apply. They have an office in the house and get access to all kinds of lab spaces and conference rooms. They get connected with mentors, coaches, and experts.

So it sounds like a lot of possibilities for people who are thinking about this. Do I need business knowledge? Like, do I have to be someone who really feels like an entrepreneur or is it possible to do this if I feel like that I’m not really sure how businessy I am. Or maybe I have one foot still in research and I’m kind of thinking about it.

Anna: Well, I’ve met quite a few researchers who started a business without having done business before. So it’s good if you are driven. I mean, if you’ve got the energy to do it. Because doing or starting a startup is kind of starting anew, like new studies at university. It’s like a whole new thing. And you need to have some energy, but best case is that you wear all hats: You’re the idea giver and you’re the business guy and you know marketing and sales. But that’s not very often the case. More often it is that you find other team members who are experienced in business or sales or marketing and we help find additional team members. It’s possible to post a job offer at the university or at our network and it’s mostly possible to find a person that fits into the team.

It sounds like you really don’t have to be the business person if you want to try this out. And it sounds like you’d be able to test it out a little bit, get to know you guys and you don’t have to decide right away that you want to do a whole startup. So I have a second question. And that would be. Imagine that I get involved and I start developing an idea. Maybe I go all the way through this startup founding or come up with this business idea, but it’s not successful. What benefit do I have as a researcher for trying this out? And maybe I tried out during my PhD or during my early postdoc phase. What is the benefit of it? If I don’t succeed, what do I get out of that?

Anna: Well, in my opinion, it is really like another education that you went through. And like you’ve had an upgrade on your education. That’s an experience that you will always need because you’ve been able to build up a network that you will probably keep for a long time and you will always be able to get back to people you met during starting up a business. And of course, if it didn’t work, maybe you will try again. Because that’s what a lot of people do. They fail once and try it again and do it better the next time. So that is, I think, what you get out of it.

Teresa: I wanted to add, that if you’re more into the transfer perspective from industry-university collaboration then founding your own startup, I guess that it’s quite similar. You get a new network because you will work with the company, you get to know people there, get new insights, also see what kind of jobs are available. Like who’s working in this company? Could I imagine myself working there? So having first contact with them. We also support you going to fairs and present your idea. For instance, we are having your prototype at this fair and then you could also meet new interesting people. Or you go to any network events we organize. For instance, we have Industry on Campus with a focus on green chemistry, where students and researchers from Berlin or any other place are able to meet startups, companies that engage in green chemistry. Just talk to them, get new ideas, new input, and learn something.

Excellent. So it sounds like there’s a possibility not just to start a company, but also to sort of talk to companies that exist to find out a little bit about how I can bring my idea into existing structures? Did I understand that correctly?

Teresa: Exactly. So there are funding programs supporting the cooperation between small and medium enterprises in Germany with universities or research institutions in general. And we’re happy to support those projects. Also, if you don’t know any company working in your field, you can tell us your idea and then we are happy to have a look if we know anyone who’s working in this field. We bring you together, have a meeting and maybe a project arises and then we apply for this funding.

Excellent. So maybe that’s also another option for listeners who are kind of interested in this startup idea, but they’re not really sure if they see themselves starting a whole company. Where they can find out a little bit more about what’s going on in the industry. If they’re not so sure how that might work, or maybe they want to bring an idea.
So you guys also do a couple of other things. You have a lot of services that you already mentioned. Is there anything else that you haven’t talked about that you think that I should know about, if I were doing a PhD at the Freie Universität and I was thinking about transfer in general?

Teresa: We also organize a lot of competitions. For instance, the Research to Market Challenge, where you can submit a short concept note presenting your idea and then, if you are selected, you will get through some workshops, get this knowledge Anna mentioned before, some canvas business model or a pitch training and you will have the chance to develop your idea further with the help of trainers and the help of our grant advisors. Or another competition is Forum Junge Spitzenforschung, which will open a new call this autumn and the topic will be sensors and data generated by them. There you could also hand in your recent research and hope to get funding and workshops with the trainers.

It sounds like there are a lot of opportunities, but it also sounds like something where you could get really important skills, even if you don’t kind of go in this direction, even if you stay in academia. Because pitching your project and being able to get people excited about it, is something that you need to know across the board. So that sounds very cool. So what is the benefit of working with you guys versus just doing this by myself?

Anna: We’ve been in this area since 2006. Profund Innovation and the call to do transfer at university exists since 2006. So there is some experience . And we do see a lot of projects and ideas. So I think we are really a good address to go to as well as the other transfer and startup teams at other universities. So you should really just write us or call us and talk to us if you plan on developing your idea further, or if you just want to find out if this idea is eligible for any funding program. And I wanted to add a service that we offer, or at least a colleague of ours offers. Whenever researchers start, he or she should come up to us, or to our colleague. She does IP management and patent management. So if there’s any issue about where you could find out whether your idea is able to file a patent for or if you want to find out how to protect your IP, you should definitely go to our colleague Dr. Christine Reuter.

Could you tell us a little bit about this IP process and patent process? Like what is important and what are some of the concerns that researchers have when they’re thinking about this process, what might be some of the questions?

Teresa: The biggest concern is „I will lose time“, because a patent isn’t published in a journal, as PhD students or researchers are used to, but there is a different process. So most of the people say, „No, I want to publish it because I want to submit my PhD soon. I want to have the certificate.“, and there we would recommend before publishing, to come to our colleague, Christine to talk to her about your research results. And also the patent process can be quite fast. So after you have talked to her and both of you decided you have a good result, you have something that is worth to go for a patent, then you can submit together with the other persons who were involved in the process of getting this research results, an invention disclosure. After that, Christine and her team will do some research like: Are there other patents in this field? If so, what content do they have? Is your content new enough or different enough to be a new patent? Is there an inventive step in your research results? She always says, research results can be patented if the guy in the lab next door would have never expected this result. If you go to him or her, tell him or her your ideas and he’s like, „Oh, wow. That’s totally new. I would have thought if I put A and B together, it’s C and now you say it’s D. So amazing.“ That’s worth going for a patent. So you submit this invention disclosure to Christine and her team. And after that, they do some research, have talks with our lawyer, the patent lawyer. And after that we will confirm or not confirm to take it. And after that it’s published, I think, 12 months later. But having in mind that also reviews at journals take quite a while. At least in life science I know stories where a paper took two years to be published. So compared to that it’s quite fast. Not slower than a paper, let’s say it this way. And for your track record, a patent counts as a publication. So that’s sometimes important as well.

So if I publish something as a patent, one benefit of doing the patent is that I have a publication basically. What is the other benefit of getting a patent? Like, why do I want one? Why is it important?

Teresa: For most funding agencies, the probability of funding is higher if you have a patent. At least for the funding programs we support at Profund Innovation, which deal with transferring knowledge into industry. There it’s a plus point if you can show I have a patent on that.

I would love to hear from you guys if there are any examples you can share with us. We love all examples, but I would love to hear if there are examples that have a connection to the social sciences, to the humanities, because I think that’s a little bit harder sometimes for people to imagine, you know, how do I fit in here? I think it’s a little easier for life sciences. And I know you guys are specializing in the life science and the health, as you mentioned. But if you have any, and when you’ve heard about it, I would just think it’d be really interesting for our listeners to hear about.

Anna: Yes, we all love to see more ideas evolving from the social sciences. And we are waiting for it patiently, but there are examples at least. Quite a few that are from the Department of Psychology and Educational Sciences at Freie Universität. One, for example, is an app called Aumio, which is the meditation app for kids with ADHD. The founder studied psychology at Freie Universität Berlin and he was an ADHD patient himself when he was a child. And his parents were like: Oh yeah, we don’t make a big topic out of it. Just wait and see until it gets better and so on. But one day he discovered that meditation helped him a lot. So when studying psychology, he did his master thesis about that topic and did quite a few surveys and started to study on that and found out it really, really helps. So, he built up the startup idea and found team members in the business area and design. And designed this beautiful app with meditation, adventurous trips for kids. And came up with funding and made it to the health insurance company. All the big ones from Germany. That’s a well going startup right now. And there’s another idea that evolved also from the psychology department, which is an awesome app for chemotherapy. Normally, when they receive chemotherapy, they have kind of a chain of little beads and they can say: Okay,now I’ve gained another bead and I have chemotherapy one, then there’s the other therapy and I get another bead and so on. They developed an app for that because, of course, kids today find it way cooler to have a digital tool to see their progress. Developing that app, the idea giver did not only study psychology at Freie Universität but she was a nurse before. A children’s nurse at Charité. And she could also find out that of course parents were really kind of feeling helpless, supporting their kids. And then she also developed an app for parents and caregivers. So she made up a lot of content to help caregivers deal with this situation.

That’s a great example of a connection to the social sciences, because I can think of a lot of ideas where people are talking about research, where they’re dealing with, you know, what do people, how do people behave, or what do they do, or what do they need? And I also really like that idea of connecting to a prior career path, because I think it’s easy for a lot of people to think: I’ve done all these different things. How do I put those two things together?

Teresa: Maybe I can add something to that question because it’s not only us hoping for new projects or more projects in the field of social science and humanities, but also the politics are going that way. The Federal Ministry for Research and Education will publish a call for social innovations in October, November. And we will be happy to have some info sessions on that as soon as it is published. I hope to have a lot of applications from Freie Universität.

I have one more question for you, and that is: What have I not asked you that you think that I should ask you? And maybe there’s some questions that people come to you guys with and you really feel like that’s a question that you would love for everyone to have the answer to, because it gets asked so often. Or maybe there’s a question or information that you would love to share. And I’ll ask both of you.

Anna: Yeah, maybe people come up and wonder when is the best time to approach us. It’s always a question. I think we all would say: Whenever you feel like it. Whenever you think you’ve found something that is possibly a good startup idea or that could be interesting for industry partners, just give us a call.

Teresa: And maybe it’s not only the question, „When should I come to you?“, but also, „Why should I come to you?“ And there, I guess, everyone who is in science or who’s doing his or her PhD right now, is in science because he or she wants to have an impact. They want to invent something or find out some new things and make the world a better place. I know that’s a quite often used phrase. But if you want to have an impact, society and the market need to know about your results. They have to get out of the drawer next to your desk and come to the public. And so we will support you with that. Either in the way of bringing you together with companies or to support you to found your own company.

So I just want to thank you guys so much for talking to us today. We’re recording this interview in the fall, but it’s possible that it might not be published for a little while. So for our listeners, you will be able to find information about what is coming up by visiting the links, which we’ll also provide, to the Profund Innovation website. Or by getting in touch with the team at Profund Innovation. Thank you so much.

This interview was conducted by the co-host of our podcast Amanda Wichert

In this episode, Prof. Pagel was one of the two winners of the Supervisor Award 2022, which is an award presented annually by the Dahlem Research School for exceptional supervision of doctoral researchers. Prof. Pagel talks about what makes a good, but also a bad doctorate relationship, what he himself experienced during his doctorate and what one would have to do to win him over as a supervisor. He also talked about many other things, including micromanagement, answering emails outside of working hours and what doctoral researchers can do on their part to ensure a good relationship with their supervisor. Enjoy listening to the interview!

AUDIO

HIGHLIGHTS

„I’m not just here to give lectures, but one of my central tasks is to supervise doctoral students. And to turn them into real scientists with solid specialist training.“

„In the natural sciences, you have to realize that if someone starts their doctorate and after about a year and a half doesn’t understand more about the subject than the person supervising them, then something has gone wrong.“

from our interview with Prof. Pagel

LINKS

For more information on the annual supervision award by the Dahlem Research School see here.

TRANSCRIPT

Intro

Welcome to the DRS Podcast, the podcast of the Dahlem Research School at Freie Universität Berlin. I am Dr. Marlies Klamt and today I am interviewing Professor Dr. Kevin Pagel. Mr. Pagel was one of the two winners of the Supervisor Award 2022, which is an award presented annually by the Dahlem Research School for exceptional supervision of doctoral researchers. The special thing about this award is that doctoral students nominate their supervisors themselves. If you also have an outstanding supervisor, you can find the link for the nomination in the show notes. I talked to Prof. Pagel about what makes a good, but also a bad doctorate relationship, what he himself experienced during his doctorate and what I would have to do to win him over as a supervisor.
But we also talk about many other things, including micromanagement, answering emails outside of working hours and what doctoral researchers can do on their part to ensure a good relationship with their supervisor.
And now I hope you enjoy listening to the interview!

Interview

Professor Pagel, could you please briefly introduce yourself?

My name is Kevin Pagel, I am a professor of bio-organic chemistry at the Free University of Berlin. In our research, we mainly deal with the structural investigation of complex biomolecules, especially carbohydrates and sugars, which we look at more closely using various methods. In particular, we use mass spectrometry methods to determine the weights of the molecules.

And you also supervise doctoral researchers.

I also supervise doctoral researchers. At the moment, there are eight students in my working group who are aiming for a doctorate.

You are one of the two winners of the 2022 Supervisor Award from Freie Universität Berlin. What was your first thought when you found out that you were receiving this award?

Well, first of all, I was delighted to have received this award because I actually knew that it existed. And above all, I knew that my own students had to nominate someone. And of course it’s a very special honor when your own people nominate you for such an award. It has twice the impact.

This prize is awarded for exemplary supervision of doctoral researchers. In your opinion, what constitutes good doctoral supervision?

Well, I think the most important thing when supervising doctoral researchers is to strike a balance between mentoring and providing support, but at the same time giving them enough freedom. Nobody comes to a university for a doctoral position like this who isn’t intrinsically motivated anyway. And that’s why I’m not a big fan of giving people too many guidelines. First and foremost, it’s about really getting the best potential out of everyone. And that includes giving students a certain amount of freedom.
At the same time, of course, you have to make sure that no one drifts off course and that everyone keeps their focus. And that really is a big challenge. So taking good enough care, but not taking too good care.

Yes, I definitely agree with you. When you think back to your own doctoral studies, what experiences did you have with your doctoral supervisor? Perhaps there was something that you particularly appreciated about your supervisor or perhaps something that you remember negatively, where you say I want to consciously distance myself from them today?

In my own doctorate, I actually experienced exactly what I am now trying to convey to my own students. Because I had an incredible number of opportunities. I had a great deal of academic freedom and I was also able to determine the topics I worked on to a certain extent. But what was always there was the infrastructure and the resources to actually carry out the experiments. And that was very, very productive. Because, as I said, as a young person in particular, you are bursting with ideas.
It would be downright stupid to cut it all off and limit it and not let people do it. And that was definitely the case during my doctorate. I was able to express myself very, very well and had a lot of academic freedom.

I asked you what you think makes a good doctoral relationship. What do you think constitutes poor doctoral supervision?

Well, I think the fine line between too much supervision and too little supervision cannot be overestimated. You really have to find a fine balance. I see it more often in my day-to-day work that supervisors go into micromanagement and then make really, really detailed specifications about what should be achieved when, what should be written down and how, and so on. And that often leads to any creativity, which is the greatest asset of the young people we work with, simply being cut off. And that’s exactly what we really need to prevent. And then the whole thing can become very, very productive.

You’ve already mentioned the balance between providing support as a supervisor and at the same time giving doctoral researchers their freedom. What problems can the doctoral researchers you supervise turn to you for help with and where do you perhaps also say that this is the limit, that this is something they have to manage themselves?

In my experience, one of the biggest problems that students have in their day-to-day work is writer’s block. This is really the thing that occurs most frequently by far, that the data is there, the experiments are done, everything looks great. We’ve had presentations and meetings about it and now the publication can actually be written and then it starts to get tough. And that’s exactly why we’ve actually established a kind of master plan, a kind of system for how to ultimately turn the data into a publication. This follows a relatively clear pattern of what should be written down and when.
In other words, it usually starts with a concept sketch, then the illustrations are created, then you have a meeting with everyone involved, then the illustrations are used to knit a red thread for a publication, which is then underpinned with the appropriate words in the next step in order to turn it into a publication. In my experience, this is very, very helpful for students, especially those who have major problems with writing. And in my opinion, that really is the biggest challenge for doctoral researchers at the moment.

That sounds great. So I can imagine it as a kind of handbook?

There’s even a PDF and a presentation.

And you get that right at the beginning of the doctorate or only when you start writing?

No, I give this presentation in the working group seminars at regular intervals, also elsewhere. And the students can of course also download it from the website. And it exists here, it’s all over the internal folders. And people are familiar with it and know that it exists.

Yes, great. I think it’s a really great idea, because I know that writer’s block can be a real hindrance and can drag out the doctorate unnecessarily. Even if the supervision is going well in principle, that doesn’t mean that there won’t be any conflicts. After all, a doctorate is a time when there are numerous challenges and often crises. How do you deal with it if there is a crisis between you and one of the people you are supervising?

I actually try to resolve conflicts relatively openly. In this context, resolving conflicts openly also means that everyone is allowed to have their say. It’s not always easy, but there’s little point in carrying such conflicts around forever. And I then usually try to have a clarifying conversation with the people concerned. This has actually always worked quite well so far because, as I said, intrinsic motivation is inherent in all doctoral researchers, which is why it has always worked quite well. Occasionally there is friction between the members of the working group, but this can usually be resolved relatively easily.

In other words, you would invite the relevant employees to a meeting and try to clarify this together at the table?

Exactly. A meeting is then arranged and then you try to talk to each other and solve the problem. It’s actually relatively trivial things that are usually involved. It’s about authorship, about publications. It’s about who gets to go on which business trip or who is nominated for which award. But all of that can usually be resolved. So it’s rare for really deep conflicts to arise.

And do you sometimes have to make decisions that you think I would rather not have made?

Well, there are decisions that can be unpleasant because sometimes you just can’t decide things properly. That’s just the way it is. I would say that I’ve never had to make a decision that really made my stomach hurt. Not even afterwards.

Assuming I wanted to do a doctorate with you and asked you to supervise me, what would I have to bring to the table for you to accept me as a doctoral candidate?

As a rule, the requirements are actually relatively low, because you have to imagine that if you dive really deep into a research project like this, you usually don’t know what it’s about beforehand anyway. So there are no experts at doctoral level, at least when the students are just starting out. That’s why the skills, methodological and analytical skills are very, very important to me. In other words, the basic knowledge should be halfway there and creative thinking and so on should also be present. As far as the actual techniques are concerned, you learn everything on the job. You don’t have to bring too much with you.

You mentioned methodical and analytical skills and creative thinking. How do you check that this is present in a person?

As a rule, almost nobody in my working group starts a doctorate without having seen the person in a different context beforehand. These are either research internships that people complete as part of their studies. These are presentations at conferences. You’ve talked to the person in question in other ways. And you get a really good feel for whether it works and whether people are capable of doing it. I wouldn’t feel comfortable giving applicants any tests to find out what they are particularly good at. I don’t think that would do the job justice either.

Do you occasionally accept people via initial applications? In other words, people you haven’t been in contact with before at conferences or who you don’t already know from your Master’s degree, for example?

Yes, that has actually happened several times. There has also been a situation where we advertised a position and several suitable people applied. And then there were two new doctoral researchers and not just one. That was actually quite good.

Great, if you have the funds to hire both of them, all the better.
One question I’m always asked is, if I apply to someone now, to a professor who doesn’t know me yet, and I’d like to do my doctorate with that person, should I send them a fully prepared exposé? Or do I first write who I am, maybe send a CV and then ask if there are any projects I could work on? Of course, this is also subject-specific, but what about you? Do you prefer more concrete ideas or is it more important that the person fits in with you and your working group in principle?

It’s actually unusual to come with fully developed ideas, but it’s more the case that you develop ideas together and also try to decide together where the person fits in best based on their own skills. So it’s actually more the case that I talk to suitable candidates, give them a short presentation and simply show them what topics we are researching in the working group. And then we try to identify a topic together and work out together in which direction it could go. Of course, you often have guidelines from larger research projects as to which areas to research. However, these positions are advertised in such a way that they explicitly state what the doctoral position is for.

And what do you do if you have a person in front of you and you say that the CV fits well, the skills fit well, but I somehow have a strange gut feeling or I don’t like the person, I can’t say exactly what it is, but something bothers me. Would you still put them on the shortlist or would you say that’s a direct exclusion criterion?

Well, if the person is suitable and there are no formal objections, then it definitely makes sense to shortlist them. There are rules about that. There doesn’t always have to be perfect harmony in a working group. There can also be… Minor conflicts can also be managed. That’s not the problem. Everyone doesn’t always have to be a perfect match. And in any case, you should also take such applicants into account.

For whom are you not the right supervisor?

What’s problematic is when people really expect very, very detailed supervision every day. I know there are colleagues who do this, who issue very, very detailed guidelines, where it is really clear week after week what the students have to do. I can’t do that and I don’t want to do that either, to be honest, because it’s far too restrictive for me. In other words, if someone really needs a very, very detailed work plan and supervision, then I’m probably not the right person to talk to. I provide resources, I provide the monetary means to carry out the experiments, but I’m not going to check exactly what people are doing every day.

How often do you talk to your doctoral researchers about their projects that are relevant to their doctorates?

Well, of course we have a working group seminar. That’s what everyone does. We get together once a week. There’s usually a presentation and we talk openly about topics. I meet with the doctoral researchers at least once every six months and keep a record of the whole thing with a plan. But of course we also try to exchange ideas as best we can in our everyday lives. That means I also go to the lab or to people’s desks and talk to them and try to get a feel for where things are going wrong and where they are not. It’s actually a habit I picked up a bit from one of my postdoc’s supervisors. She was very busy, had a very, very large working group and still managed to go round once a week and talk to everyone for five minutes. And that really is a great thing. I also really appreciated that.

In other words, you actually always have an overview of who is standing roughly where and can then also see if things are stuck somewhere and the person is simply not making progress.

Yes, absolutely. I mean, you have to. It’s relatively important, because the end result should be a doctorate and a failed doctorate doesn’t just reflect negatively on the doctoral researcher, but also on me. It’s actually my job to make sure that the students can complete their doctorates properly and quickly.

In an ideal world, definitely. Unfortunately, the experiences that my coachees have with their supervisors are not always like that. Especially in doctorates in the humanities and social sciences, it can sometimes happen that you don’t have any contact at all for two years if you are doing an external doctorate. From this point of view, a weekly exchange, even if it is only short, is of course very ideal and very good for the doctoral researchers.

Yes. It has to be said that many of the doctoral projects in my department are directly linked to larger third-party funded research projects. And there is always a kind of reporting obligation for these. This means that if the doctorate doesn’t work, the research project won’t work either. And then, of course, you get into trouble at some point when these reports have to be written. That’s why it’s in my own interest to make sure that something sensible comes out of it.
The most important thing is that you see it as a bit of a job. I mean, that’s why I’m here. I’m not just here to give lectures, but it’s one of my central tasks to supervise doctoral researchers. And to turn them into real academics with solid specialist training. And of course you want to do that well. And you have to think about the best way to do that.

And what does that give you on a personal level?

Above all, it’s really nice to see how people mature. They often come to me when they are just starting their Master’s degree, at the beginning of their Master’s degree and have very, very good theoretical knowledge and are totally fit. But in many other areas, academic writing, thought structures and so on, they lack a bit of experience.
And when you really supervise people for three, four or five years, sometimes over these different stages, it’s really great to see, especially when they then go out and acquire major funding projects themselves, take up great positions and write great publications.
One of my first doctoral researchers has actually become a junior professor. That’s really great to see, of course. It’s a bit of an accolade.

Now, a good relationship between doctoral supervisors and doctoral candidates is a two-way street. Perhaps you have a few tips for doctoral researchers on what they can do to build a good relationship with their supervisor and then maintain it. So what can I do specifically as a doctoral researcher to ensure that my supervisor is happy with me and what should I perhaps not do?

In any case, what is always very, very useful is to seek contact, to seek discussions. Not all the time, but I think it’s very important to keep in touch. What always goes down very, very well is actually developing your own ideas and concepts. I also see this with my colleagues. It’s something that goes down very well everywhere if the doctoral researchers really immerse themselves in the topic.
In the natural sciences, you simply have to realize that if someone starts a doctorate and after about a year and a half doesn’t understand more about the topic than the supervisor, then something has gone wrong. And interaction often takes place on this basis. And that’s really great fun, because you’re dealing with experts once people have got to grips with a topic.

Does that mean you still learn a lot from your doctoral researchers?

Absolutely. So it’s not just the subject matter, but sometimes it’s simply the creativity, the train of thought that is completely different from my own. And sometimes you scratch your head and ask yourself, what is this actually about? And then at some point you realize it’s a really great idea, let’s do it.

How do you deal with the fact that you are now working on publications together with your colleagues, for example, and you have different working styles or different approaches? For example, if you have a deadline for a paper, there are people who do everything at the last minute and others who try to finish as far in advance as possible. How do you deal with this when you have different approaches?

Yes, I actually adapt a bit to the needs of the doctoral researchers. I actually experience this on a daily basis. There are students who come to me with their manuscripts four weeks before the deadline, simply to have enough time, and I then try to process them quickly. But if the house is on fire and a paper has to be finished within three days at the very end, then I get stuck in too. It’s just very different. I actually try to meet everyone’s needs in that respect.

How do you handle communication after official working hours, i.e. in the evening, at weekends, on public holidays?

I actually saw this once from a colleague in England. I don’t have this in my own email signature, but I tell my employees this and they all know it. Sometimes it suits me very well to send an email at nine in the evening. But that doesn’t mean that I expect it to be answered at nine in the evening. Just because it suits me doesn’t mean I expect the others to do the same.

In other words, you also rely on clear communication in this case and say that I do it and don’t set an implicit example, which is what it is in principle when you set an example, but I make it very transparent that it’s something I do because it fits into my daily routine, but that I don’t expect anyone else to do the same.

Exactly, that’s how I actually communicate it. Everyone in my working group actually knows that too. Especially when you have a family, you often have to answer certain things in the evening. Or you’re on a business trip and you quickly reply from the train and so on. And everyone knows that I don’t expect anyone to reply to an email at eight o’clock on a Friday evening. That’s clear to everyone. If I get an answer on Monday morning, that’s perfectly fine.

Do you see a change in the role of doctoral supervisors? I’m thinking of a longer period of time, such as the last 10 or 20 years, but perhaps also the last few years due to covid.

Yes, I think the trend over the last 10 or 20 years is that hierarchies have generally become much flatter. In the past, it was often seen as my doctoral student. Today, the view is actually more that you work together with the doctoral students and that you build things up for each other and so on. And that’s not just the case in my working group, I think it’s the case everywhere, that it’s all becoming a bit flatter.
Due to covid… We’re not even feeling the direct effects so much here at doctoral student level. We’re seeing it more with Master’s students, because they’re just slowly finishing up. And it’s mainly the practical skills where more supervision is needed at the moment. That is noticeable.

How do you explain that?

It certainly has to do with the fact that far fewer practical courses could take place in the laboratories themselves during the coronavirus period. Practical work was already massively restricted. Another major problem was that students were no longer able to interact with each other as actively because they no longer saw each other. There’s simply a difference between making appointments by phone or online and simply meeting in the corridor and talking about things. And that already leads to major restrictions and especially the research internships, which are quite common here, where students sometimes work on a topic in a working group for 15 weeks, were already extremely limited during the corona period. And you notice that.

Mr. Pagel, is there another important point that we have forgotten that we should definitely address?

I think it’s really important… At every stage of academic training, there are certain criteria that are used to measure or evaluate. It’s about publications and grades and things like that. And I sometimes have the feeling that one aspect that is much, much more important in other European countries is falling behind, namely the ability to organize your own funding. In my opinion, this is actually still a little underdeveloped in Germany. I know this from international colleagues, where it is quite common for doctoral students to be much more actively involved in writing applications, in writing their own grant applications and so on and so forth.

Is that something you are also trying to actively promote?

Absolutely. I also help people to write their own proposals. This skill becomes extremely important later on, especially if you want to stay in science, because a great proposal that you get through sometimes counts as much as five good publications or ten. This is a very, very important criterion for your future academic career. And you can’t start practicing this early enough.

Is that also a point that you address at some point when someone tells you that they have decided that they would rather go into industry after their doctorate, that they just want to get it over with as quickly as possible, or that they are really aiming for a professorship, that you then also try to support people in different ways and provide different kinds of assistance?

Absolutely. Of course, it’s really important to focus a little on the professional goals of the person in question. Sometimes I even assign topics in this direction. So it does happen that someone comes to me and says I want to do a doctorate and then do this and that in industry. Then we sometimes even select the topics where the whole thing would fit well. Because the research that is required in industry or the skills that are required there are not always completely the same as in an academic laboratory.

Mr. Pagel, thank you very much for this wonderful interview.

Thank you very much.

Outro

After this very informative conversation, I would just like to remind you once again that you can also put your supervisor in the running for the Supervisor Award. This happens once a year and we provide information about the deadlines on the website and in the newsletter. So it’s best to register directly so that you don’t miss the next round.
On the website for this episode, we also link to the Supervisor Award page, where you can see who has won the award since 2011, if you’re curious.

This interview was conducted by the co-host of our podcast Dr. Marlies Klamt

Content Advisory: This episode features a discussion of mental health challenges and positive strategies to deal with mental health. There is a very brief mention of suicide. If you or someone you know is struggling with feelings of self-harm or suicidal thoughts, please reach out to the Seelesorge hotline in Germany at 0800 1110 111 or get emergency help by calling 112. Additional resources for mental health are available in the links below.

In this episode, we talk to Sandra Neumann of Scholar Minds about mental health during your doctorate. We’ll discuss how to manage the challenges of doing a doctorate and what strategies exist to help you! We’ll also learn more about Scholar Minds, a ECR-led initiative for mental health during the doctorate, and how you can get involved.

Audio

Download or listen to the audio version of the podcast here.

Highlights

„I think the most important message for us to convey is, please don’t [wait to] come to us when you are already suffering. Come to us when you feel like, „Oh, I’m not sure. I think I need, maybe I need to be there in a preventative manner.““

„I think mental health should be, call it however you want to call it, but should be part of a curriculum. It should be […] included in the PhD you’re doing, be it a graduate program that includes fixed courses or when you do an individual PhD“

from our interview with Sandra Neumann

Links

Find useful resources and more information on this subject here.

Transcript

Please note: This is a machine-generated translation that has been (minimally) edited for readability.

Welcome. We are here today with Sandra Neumann, a doctoral candidate at the Berlin School of Mind and Brain at Humboldt University, and she is one of the founders of Scholar Minds, which we are going to learn about more today.

Welcome. So the first question that I’d like to ask you is if you could tell us a little bit about Scholar Minds. What is it? And where did it start? And what do you do with your organization?

Yeah, Scholar Minds is actually an initiative which is nonprofit. And we founded ourselves pretty much at the start of the Corona Pandemic because we realized that a lot of people really were asking for events to talk about mental health and to make aware that people are suffering at home, especially during this very month of strict isolation.

And so Scholar Minds is an initiative from early career researchers, and we are really including postdocs here as well, who are in the early stages as well as PhD candidates. And we want to both have, or want to foster changes both on the individual level. Meaning that we want to approach early career researchers with talks and events, and at the same time also trying to make changes on the institutional level really, and try to talk to principal investigators, graduate schools on how to improve creating awareness for mental health really.

You’d mentioned this expectation survey and I would love to hear more about that and maybe you can fill us in on what that is.

Yeah, Scholar Minds has very different goals. I think the first goal that I already mentioned was that we want to create awareness for mental health, and we can do that through very many different things.

And one thing is like having events and then talking about mental health. And another aspect is to do surveys. And we actually did two surveys now, and I can talk about the first one because we are still analyzing the second one. And here we really looked into satisfaction with the PhD and mental wellbeing.

And we also looked into how was it before the pandemic versus how is it now? And I think just to name some of the findings that we have, is that within our sample we had approximately 16% who had a mental health disorder before starting the PhD. But what is alarming is that then 50% of these 15 had another diagnosis, which was connected to their PhD. So that really shows the vulnerability, really, that comes through being in this PhD program when not being equipped with the right competencies and maybe support for resilience. And what we also found is that, and I think that is really not surprising, and this is really built with other studies that are coming up now, is that the pandemic really decreased satisfaction with the PhD training and that the mental wellbeing also changed for the worse for over half of the sample. And I think when you talked about expectation management, one thing that we ask in the end, and this is very much the same in the first survey which we did in 2020, and the second one in 2021, is that we ask, „So you enter the PhD, and then how is it compared to what you expected?“

And here, actually over 60% say, „It’s actually worse. This experience that I thought I would have is actually worse than I thought it would be, being in this PhD training.“ And I think this really gives us insights on how to design these PhD programs and how to advertise them, to really give realistic expectations on what this PhD will be like. Maybe what are the working hours, what are things that you need to maybe be in interaction with your supervisor and so forth. So there are really so many implications from this question.

That’s really interesting, and when I think back, we have another podcast season where we interview PhD students and ask them about their PhD experience or graduates actually. And we asked them a little bit about, „What is the difference between what you expected and what you actually experienced?“ And so far, the answers have been everything. So that’s a very interesting study and I’m sure really useful in application.

So my next question for you is, what are some of the most common challenges that doctoral students face? What are they when they maybe when you guys interact with them or when you meet with doctoral students, or when you guys think about your own challenges, what are the challenges that they’re facing? And particularly, what about the environment is challenging? So being in the system or the structure of the PhD?

Yeah, I think that’s a really good question, and I think every stage of the PhD comes with its own challenges. I think the first challenge is, and this is connected to this expectation management, is when I start the PhD, what is really expected of me?

Should I work endlessly? How fast should I finish projects? Am I supposed to communicate with, like my colleagues? Should we work together? Should each individual work? And then really having this ratio of competition and collaboration and also this individual contract with your supervisor.

So what does your supervisor expect from you? And then going into the PhD and then thinking about, okay, you have to at some point finish and there are certain criteria that you need for finishing, which could be, for example, publishing. And that entails a certain timeline because it’s not that you submit something and then it’s published a week later.

So really then, during these long periods of being in publishing processes, which can be also in terms of becoming harsh criticism, to really being up for the challenge and really enduring the criticism you might receive. And then yeah, toward the end, just really seeing still the worst of the PhD work you did maybe throughout several years.

And then you know, who in these very challenging times, when it comes to working environment, who is the person you might potentially talk to about these problems? Can you talk to your supervisor or will the supervisor then potentially perceive you as weak or not up to the task? How open can you be about your own struggles?

So there are really lots of different challenges when it comes to the PhD.

I think that’s what you said. Just the last thing was really interesting because that’s something we would like to know. How do you approach colleagues or even your supervisor when you are having difficulties or challenges?

Can I ask for help? And maybe why do you think that’s such a challenging thing? You mentioned already, we don’t want our supervisors to think we’re weak or beyond that, what do you think makes that such a difficult thing for people to do and how can we overcome that?

I think the first thing is that in the academic world, now it’s known as the mental health crisis, so that in general, people are suffering more or coming out more with that they’re having a mental health problem, which is great, but it means that the system has to learn and also supervisors have to learn to deal with it.

But it’s not like having a physical problem where there’s something to fix it, and then you are basically fixed and healed. Having a mental health problem is way more difficult and way more delicate to approach. So as a supervisor, I can imagine it is very difficult to when someone tells me, I might face depression or anxiety.

So as a supervisor, what should I do? Should I, because I have to not only have the person in mind, but I have to have my lab in mind, my laboratory that I’m working in. So it’s very different factors. So the knowledge about what to do in these cases, should I provide help? Should I say maybe you need to find professional help, has this person already has professional help?

So it’s a topic that requires a lot of knowledge to deal with and I’m not sure that all like of the supervisors we have to talk to are already aware of how to actually deal with it. And then I think it’s very like super individual. Is this like a connection between a supervisor and a PhD candidate that happens once in a month? Is it something that happens weekly? So how much trust do I have in this relationship, to keep me safe in this relationship? And then to really be open and talk about the mental health problems.

So I think something that I find helpful is to, if I’m comfortable sharing it with someone, who would it be in this environment and maybe starting, for example, with a colleague that I feel comfortable with. So basically looking for allies because I think it also needs to be separated between. Are these mental health challenges that come up because I’m in this environment or are these mental health challenges that come up because of something else? Maybe I have problems with my partner. Maybe I have a physical problem that might have led to mental health challenges.

So I think it’s also important to discern that and really think about, okay, in that case, what do I actually need? And I think that’s also important to think about. Why, like what’s the reasoning for me to tell it? Do I need support in terms of do I actually don’t know how I can get support? Which could be quite likely when, for example, you do a PhD, but this is for example, not the country you’ve been grown up in and you don’t know about the system and so you’re actually looking for help or you just want to give a notice and say, „Hey, sometimes I’m not coming to the meetings because I have maybe social anxiety or something.“

So I’m looking for understanding. So what’s really the rationale, the rationale of why I’m doing this? Which is very difficult when you are in emergency situations. So sometimes it’s not clear from the beginning. But if it is, I would think about first, who is the first person I want to have? Do I need allies? And then the second thing we, what is basically, the reasoning of me telling it?

So that is, I think, really helpful because it’s something that we actually would advise a lot is if you’re having a problem and you want to address it, to think about what do I want from the other person? And I think that’s fantastic advice. You guys have mental health offers that you also offer. So one source of support could be my colleagues and my supervisors, but I could also go to Scholar Minds. What do you specifically offer? And what can I do? Say I am a PhD student who needs support? What can I get from you guys?

Yeah, so what we offer are mental health toolkits. And what that means is that we offer this, for example, for graduate schools where, for example, if you feel like maybe your graduate school could profit from this, if you can approach your graduate school and then your graduate school can contact us.

And then we offer this for groups of PhD candidates where, over the course of four weeks, we have four sessions. And then we talk about all kinds of things that are helpful to maintain your mental health because I think the most important message for us to convey is, please don’t come to us when you are already suffering. Come to us when you feel like, „Oh, I’m not sure. I think I need, maybe I need to be there in a preventative manner.“

Because if it’s already in a state where you are like, „I think I’m in a deep depression,“ then I think Scholar Minds can direct you to psychotherapy help. But this is really not what we do. We are more on the preventative side and to really make sure that you maintain your mental health. And in that sense, we are doing a lot of mindset exercises. So we are looking together at what our core beliefs in our work and maybe how to challenge them. And we are looking at imposter feelings, which in high-achieving individuals, such as many academics, are common feelings.

And we want to tackle them and think about how to. It’s not about losing these feelings, it’s more about finding acceptance with them and coping at points where they are very strong. And we’re also making exercises on why am I actually doing this PhD? What is the vision behind it? What is my goal in life? Is this PhD a step toward an academic career and do I want to follow that? Or is it one step and then the next step is a career in industry? Is it really necessary that I put all my heart and soul and time in it, or can there be a ratio because I have other things in life like my family, my friends, my personal development that also should have a space in there.

And then we also have really psychoeducation. So we are just talking about how do I recognize depression? How do I recognize anxiety? And because these are the most prevalent disorders among PhD candidates. And maybe how can I, if I am seeing that a colleague is not doing well, how can I approach a colleague really and ask if he or she’s not doing well?

That’s really interesting. So what would you suggest, maybe you could give us like a few really brief tips. Say, I noticed that my colleague is really struggling and I want to reach out to them and ask them maybe can I support them or I want to try and help them in some way. What would you suggest that I do?

I think the first thing is really to, when you offer to give help, I think first of all, it’s important to create a safe space where this person feels that he or she can talk about it. Maybe it’s not the right place in the office where everybody else is, or in the team meeting, but maybe it’s a place where you go for a walk and a coffee.

And if the person is comfortable sharing, then really it’s about listening. And it’s not about giving advice, if I were in your situation, this is what you have to do. No. It’s really about accepting, listening, and really asking the person if the person needs advice at this point, and not being afraid. I think some people have this misconception that when they ask, things will turn bad or worse, but the reality is that sometimes just having this open ear and just normalizing it can be really helpful already.

And then I think, this is what I said earlier, okay, now we are allies in that. And then what’s the best step for you to move forward because the person is the expert of his or her experiences. So we have to trust in that. Obviously, if and I think that’s a very serious topic, if thoughts and ideas of suicidal actions come up, then this is where the purely listening part stops. This is where you have to openly say, „Look, you told me this and that, and this is something where you are endangering your life.“

And this is basically where my only listening stops. And I think this is where we need to get someone professional. I can get you there. I can call, for example, an ambulance, but this is where you also have to protect yourself. I think this is the last part. When someone gives you this information, you have to still protect yourself first.

Because at the end of the day, you have to also make sure that you are not then going into a mental health crisis because you’re taking on all the burden of your colleagues.

I think that’s really important. What you’ve just said is also to protect yourself. And I think that is probably an important aspect in this environment and in academia where everyone is really maybe struggling and having a hard time, in some way or another. Is there a good way that you recommend approaching maybe a supervisor or a PI if you notice that, maybe you think that it would be really helpful for your team to have your toolkit or to get an intervention from you guys, but you’re not really sure how to address it with your supervisor?

Do you guys have suggestions on how to bring that up with the supervisor that’s maybe not as experienced or that doesn’t have as much knowledge as you mentioned earlier, which is really important in understanding how valuable this could be?

Yeah. I think one thing in general that we experience is that if we call it mental health, it gets way easier rejected. Instead, when we call it self-care and self-management, this is something that is easier digestible, and so this could be one way of phrasing it and saying, „Hey, I think we as a team may need some self-management. This could be helpful, something in this direction.“

And I think one thing we need to be really honest about is that this might always be challenging to talk about and to expect that it might be difficult and there might be a „no“ first, because then maybe the supervisor goes back into the team meetings and then realizes for him or herself, maybe actually we might need that. So maybe in one meeting, just planting a seed and then being very persistent about it. And just asking maybe again, and then also maybe showing the website again, asking for allies. So I think making this change, and this is something we as Initiative also more and more realized, making changes in terms of mental health is not something that comes overnight. It’s a process and like being open and talking about it, it’s just the first step. There are so many more steps to go.

When we spoke earlier, you mentioned this project or this idea that I really wanted to touch on while we’re talking and I think it connects to this idea of changing the way we think about mental health. And that is this idea of CVs of failure. And I think, as you mentioned earlier, one of the issues that we have with mental health in academia is really this pressure to do really well and to not make mistakes or to do things that aren’t perfect, or really this lack of, let’s say, space to fail. And maybe if you want to talk a little bit about the CVs of failures and maybe why it’s important for us to be aware of the fact that even successful people have failed.

So the event that we are doing once a month is called Growing Up in Science. And there we invite supervisors or principal investigators from the Berlin, the wider Berlin area, but we also had them from different countries now. Then we asked them to present their way from being a PhD candidate to becoming this principal investigator.

And we specifically asked to not show us their success stories, but show us how it really was. And this could entail, it was pure luck that I got into this position or I applied for 50 professorships and then I got one. Or it was just about the right time, because a new field opened up and this was my chance.

And there are so many different reasons and quite often, it makes this experience so much more enjoyable when you see that others struggle too, and that, I don’t know, principal investigators also took more than these three years to finish their PhDs and that there was family in between, that they got children and that they didn’t shift from country to country because they thought about this, but because life happened and it makes experiences. Yeah, so much more normalizing for everybody. And I mean, there is the saying that successful people have just failed more. And I think this is something that we also want to portray, is that, yeah, you will fail and it’s totally normal and you will learn from it. And even as a principal investigator or supervisor, you still make mistakes. We are not robots. We are all humans. And it makes it easier to talk about mistakes because I think in general, in academia, we don’t have a culture of being allowed to fail. I remember when I started my PhD, every email I wrote, I meticulously, I like spent hours and hours writing emails because I was so afraid to make a mistake.

And then I received emails back from people who are high up in the hierarchy, and I realized, okay, they also make mistakes. But there is not really this culture of being allowed to make a mistake. And I think what this series, we want to show is that it’s okay to make mistakes. Everybody failed and they still made it up the hierarchy.

Nonetheless, though, it doesn’t take away the fact that it is really difficult to come into these positions of being principal investigators because there is this bottleneck that there are not, at least in Germany, not enough positions. So I think this is something that still needs to be told here, that just because you failed doesn’t guarantee you’re gonna become a principal investigator. At least in Germany, that’s not just how it works.

Yeah, I think the statistics are 3% of PhD students become professors, or at least those are the ones that I have. I also think it helps, like you said, if you know that’s out there as opposed to being surprised when you learn about it, maybe right before you finish. Yeah. What do you think would have to change for people who are not getting support to get support? Maybe we mentioned this in an earlier conversation we had, and this is an issue of course we have across the board in our workshops and in our, I do a lot of mental health workshops as well, and the people who come, it’s self-selecting. So often the people who show up are, I always say, „You guys are the, you’re doing this already. You’re the ones with the gratitude journals and who are taking these classes,“ and it’s really hard to reach that group of people who aren’t looking for support. So what do you think would have to change to get those people to be involved?

Absolutely. I think that’s really a challenge to get these people in. I think mental health should be, call it however you want to call it, but should be part of a curriculum. It should be told, or it should be included in the PhD you’re doing, be it a graduate program that includes fixed courses or when you do an individual PhD, that like really.

Be it a course that you have to take, but it has to be something that is there throughout your PhD journey. I think what I found really helpful, what we had in the, I think, in the first year of our PhD, was that we had counseling. So regardless of what your needs were, you just had this counseling where you were asked, „How are you doing? What are your challenges?“ And this was there for everybody so that you really reach everyone. And I know we had this for one year. And then it wasn’t available anymore because it was too expensive. And if I could dream up a solution, I would say yes, we would need this every half year, every six months, for every PhD candidate.

And some people might be like, „Yeah, I’m doing my gratitude journals, I’m fine. I have it all covered.“ But there might be people who have not even realized that they have a problem or that they need support. So having this monitoring in a very valuing way, like always asking, „How are you doing? What are your next challenges?“ could already go a long way. If we could, for example, it could also be incorporated in a way that every lab has this. So there’s one person who is like the mental health advocate, and this person is then responsible for checking up every six months. But obviously, then you also have to pay for this.

So I think there is where the systemic, yeah, challenges come in, that these extracurricular activities also cost money.

That’s always the question. How do we convince the system to value different things that aren’t maybe just producing science? So I have one more question for you, and that is, I have two actually. The first one is, what haven’t I asked you that you think that I should have asked you? What do you think would be really important? Is there anything you want to share with the listeners?

I think I want to just maybe highlight it once more because I think I said it earlier, but I think I want to say it again, that mental health is not something that should become a topic when you feel like things are not going well. Mental health is something that, like your physical health, that you go to the gym for weekly, should also be a weekly appointment for you and should be a check-in, should be a walk, should be going to the sauna or having a massage. Anything that helps you to release stress and maintaining your mental health. I think this is something I want to give to the audience. If I could give myself advice, I would give that to myself.

That’s a question I also like to ask, what would you, if you could travel in time back to the beginning of your PhD, what would you tell yourself in that time? Maybe in relation to mental health?

Yeah. Work less, enjoy more. I think when I talk about expectation management, I think why it is such a topic to me is because I felt that in the beginning I wasn’t sure what was to be expected. And I think if someone would’ve told me, „Hey, it takes a lot of years anyways, and it doesn’t matter if you work 10 hours on it or eight hours on it, or 12 hours, then what?“ That would have been a big relief for me and that there are so many things in this process that I cannot control. And I think having this idea of these are things I can control and these are things that are not up to me and having this liberty of saying, okay, I, I choose tasks. There are things I have to do, but there are things I can choose and I’m not taking on everything. I’m taking on what I can take on. And that I am giving back responsibility to my principal investigator and saying, if I’m taking this task on, which other task should I then not do because I’m not able to do it in the time that I’m having? That would have been nice to have more of this self-confidence, which I have today, but I didn’t have six years ago.

I think that’s really interesting to hear and important because you can only do so many things in the day. So the last question I have for you is, how can people get involved in Scholar Minds? So maybe someone’s listening to this and they think, or they’re reading it and say, „I really want this sounds so cool. I want to do this.“ How do they get involved?

I think it’s very easy. Just contact us. We are on Twitter, Berlin dot minds. We are also on Instagram. You can Google us. Just Google Scholar minds and you will find us. We have a homepage and really you can, you can join and then decide if you want to organize events with us. We have a yearly mental health conference. If you’re interested in doing that or if you’re interested in giving those mental health toolkits or organizing growing up in science, or if you say, „Okay, no, I’m more interested in public outreach. I want to design tweets or Instagram posts,“ that’s also possible. So there are really many ways of being and helping us. So just reaching out and then we’ll see what, how it goes from there. So there’s really no pressure. It’s more about going for a goal together.

Cool. And maybe I’ll add because sometimes students ask me, „Oh, I don’t know if I could really do that. I don’t know, am I good enough or do I have enough knowledge, maybe I don’t know enough about it.“ It’s, I understand it’s okay to just contact you even if you’re not an expert.

Definitely. I’m a psychologist and like psychotherapist in training, but like a lot of the people that aren’t scholar mites have no professional connection to mental health whatsoever. And even if you only decide you want to come to the weekly meetings and be there, that’s also totally fine. We are open to anybody who just wants to make a change and wants to create awareness.

Thank you so much. So thank you for talking to us, for sharing your experience.

Thank you for the opportunity.

This interview was conducted by the co-host of our podcast Amanda Wichert

This episode is in German, but you can read an English transcript of this interview at the bottom of the page.

In this episode we talk to Professor Joachim Heberle, Central Ombudsperson for Freie Universität Berlin. He explains what an ombudsperson does, what to do if you are facing a case of academic misconduct, and answers some questions about what types of cases can be supported and how an ombuds process can help you in difficult times. The interview is in German, the English translation can be read under the recording.

Audio

Download or listen to the audio version of the podcast here.

Highlights

„It is, I think, fundamentally, always good to seek help. No one should think that they can handle all of these types of things on their own.“

from our interview with Professor Heberle

Links

Find useful links on the subject of today’s podcast and many more themes that will be covered this season here.

English Transcript

Please note: This is a machine-generated translation that has been (minimally) edited for readability.

Hello and welcome to the DRS Podcast, the podcast of the Dahlem Research School at Freie Universität Berlin. I am Dr. Marlies Klamt, and I will be your host for this episode. Our guest today is Professor Joachim Heberle, a physics professor and the central ombudsperson at FU. In this interview, Prof. Heberle explains the role of an ombudsperson and how they can provide support when issues arise with supervisors or violations of good scientific practice. He shares concrete examples of when it may be beneficial to contact an ombudsperson. We also discuss how you can reach out to Prof. Heberle and other ombudspersons, including the option of remaining anonymous. It can sometimes be challenging to seek assistance, especially when conflicts involve individuals in higher positions within the hierarchy.

Additionally, I want to announce that there will be a Q&A session with Prof. Heberle in June. If you are interested in this topic and have specific questions, please register for the session. The event will be conducted in English, so feel free to inform other doctoral students at FU who may not speak German. More information can be found on the Dahlem Research School website. Now, enjoy listening to the interview!

Good afternoon, Professor Herberle. I would like to welcome you to the podcast and would like to start by asking you to briefly explain to the podcast listeners and also to me what an ombudsperson actually is and what you do in this position.

Yes, good afternoon. This cannot be summarized in one sentence – the role of an ombudsperson is always to mediate. That means that in cases of possible scientific misconduct, and this is important for me to emphasize, we try to mediate between the two conflicting parties, which is the classic case. Doctoral student and supervisor relationship is designed as a process, the asymmetrical relationship first. And there, of course, as in all human relationships, there can be challenges, and the ombudsperson system is designed to mediate there before considering steps under labor law, which of course can also happen if there are serious interpersonal problems or which need to be clarified under labor law.

Can you then give a few very specific examples of concerns that people have who come to see you?

Yes, the most common inquiries I receive as an ombudsperson are related to authorship issues in scientific publications. In modern science, teamwork is prevalent, where multiple authors contribute to the success of a research paper. The order of authors often represents a form of ranking, with the first author being responsible for the main work and deserving the most credit. This order is typically indicated by position numbers, such as 1, 2, 3, and 4, and it is important to clarify who should be assigned to each position. It is always advisable to address this matter beforehand rather than waiting until it becomes a major issue. Additionally, there are specific responsibilities for the group, particularly for the group leader or senior author, who takes charge in facilitating such discussions. It is essential that all individuals involved have the opportunity to express their views democratically and ideally reach a consensus on the author order. However, as you can imagine, conflicts and contradictions can arise in certain circumstances. In such cases, it is beneficial to have an external mediator, like an ombudsperson, who can provide assistance in moderating the discussion.

Yes, I can very well imagine that there are difficult situations. Let’s stay with the example and assume that a doctoral student comes to you and says, „I actually assumed that we had agreed with my supervisor that I would be the first author of the article, and now I’ve ended up further down the list.” What would be the next steps that you would take? Or what would you first try to find out together in conversation?

It is crucial to ensure that both parties are heard during the proceedings, as it is always a triangular process involving the complainant, the counterparty, and the ombudsperson. This triangular dynamic is also characterized by strict confidentiality, meaning that the discussions must remain confidential. This is especially important in delicate relationships, such as those involving student and supervisor. In a specific case, I would first approach the supervisor and inquire about their perspective. I would then relay that information back to the complainant, and if necessary, I would facilitate a meeting between both parties. This face-to-face discussion within the triangular relationship aims to reach a solution and resolve the issue at hand.

And what experiences have you had there? When you contact the other side, is it received sympathetically in any way? Or maybe the person thinks, oh man or I didn’t mean that, it’s just a misunderstanding, or is there often direct conflict?

Yes, that’s correct. The scope of potential conflicts within the process is vast. It involves human beings, and the outcomes depend on the individuals involved and their characters, which cannot be predicted in advance. The stage and level of escalation also play a role. At the early stages, when conflicts are more informational in nature, people involved tend to be relatively calm. However, if a conflict has been simmering for years and intensifies, especially with the involvement of publications, emotions can run very high on both sides. As the ombudsperson, my role is to help de-escalate these emotions. One strategy we often recommend is to write down the issues at hand. The act of writing allows individuals to express their emotions and provides an opportunity for reflection the following day. This helps individuals consider whether they can leave the issue behind or if further action is necessary. By introducing this writing process, we aim to bring a sense of rationality to the overall process.

Yes. Is there a case that has stayed in your memory the most, perhaps, or that has touched you personally very much?

Yes, there is, but as I emphasized at the beginning, these are confidential cases. Of course, I can talk in principle about why it happened, but of course I can’t name any persons.

If you can talk about it in principle, please feel free to share some details within the scope of what is possible.

This particular case involved a typical relationship between an institute director and a postdoc. The director had decided to ban the postdoc from the institute, preventing them from continuing their work. The postdoc viewed this as detrimental to their scientific career. We intervened by seeking the director’s input, who responded with objections and raised concerns about the postdoc’s behavior, particularly regarding missed deadlines that could impact the lab’s certification. The conversation between them escalated, resulting in a situation akin to an expulsion. Various aspects came into play, including labor law considerations. Questions arose regarding the director’s authority to exercise a ban and whether it was permissible since they were also a professor. Additionally, the case touched upon the future career of young scientists. It was a complex and time-consuming case that occupied our attention at the German Research Ombudsman, where I served as a member for over seven years. Despite our efforts, the matter could not be fully resolved, and it extended for several years, involving discussions among the institutions concerned.

If I heard correctly, unfortunately there was no happy ending in this case either.

A happy ending is rare in such cases, I must admit. Usually, it comes down to a compromise, which, like any compromise, may be seen as less than ideal by the parties involved. They may feel it’s a flawed resolution because neither side feels completely vindicated. However, the advantage of a compromise is that it brings closure to the matter. Over the past ten years in this field, I have encountered numerous cases where individuals were emotionally affected to the extent that their scientific work suffered. They found themselves unable to continue their research. In such emotionally challenging situations, reaching a compromise, even if it may not fully align with their personal stance, can provide a sense of closure. They can accept it and say, „Okay, at least I can move on and put it behind me.“ This can be a cathartic experience for many individuals.

Is there nevertheless a situation where you would say that you would not advise getting help from outside, from the ombudsperson or beyond?

I think it’s always good to seek help. No one should believe that they can handle all these things on their own. While there may be a few individuals who can, they are the exception. It is generally beneficial to seek help. The question is, what kind of help? And is the help actually helpful? Is it appropriate for the problem at hand? It is also important to acknowledge that not all issues can be resolved through an ombudsman procedure, especially in certain relationships. Many of these cases involve aspects of labor law, and in such situations, we recommend seeking advice from a lawyer instead. When it comes to labor law matters, it is often better to consult with a lawyer and consider legal actions rather than seeking conciliation through our services.

I was thinking in particular of cases that are not quite so serious, and that perhaps a relationship with the caregiver, which was perhaps not so bad from the start, can be shaken up if you bring in someone from the outside, as it were, who then also first makes public in some form, even if on a small scale, that you had a problem with a certain procedure or decision.

Yes, that’s exactly it. It is important to clearly communicate to the other person that it is not about being unfaithful, but rather addressing the frequent uncertainties and challenges faced by students in the scientific process. It is also a task of the ombudsperson to help supervisors understand that their role is a calling to assist and support, and it should be taken seriously. When a doctoral candidate approaches me as an ombudsperson, I strive to provide assistance. My goal is to foster a more balanced relationship between supervisors and supervisees, bridging the perceived asymmetry and striving for equal footing. In the scientific process, we are all equal, and it is important to create horizontal relationships, if possible. This requires the insight and cooperation of the professor involved in the case.

With the power imbalance it remains nevertheless necessarily straight if one also still has an employer-employee relationship.

Precisely, precisely, it is crucial to establish some level of separation. In my experience, I consistently emphasize in scientific processes that both parties share a common goal – the advancement of science and the pursuit of knowledge, albeit through different approaches. Ultimately, both sides are driven by the same interest, which is to uncover insights in the realm of science. Labor law matters, which pertain to the employee-employer relationship, should ideally take a secondary role in this process that is primarily focused on pure science.

Repeatedly reflecting on the common interests and shared intersection allows individuals to align on a common denominator.

Exactly.

You have emphasized multiple times that doctoral students are often approached by individuals experiencing scientific misconduct or personal conflicts. Can you identify any differences within the group of doctoral students in terms of who is more likely to be affected by these issues? For instance, are there variations between different departments or in relation to gender?

Gender does not play a role when it comes to the occurrence of scientific misconduct. Similarly, within the faculties, we have found no significant differences. The Ombudsman for Science, an independent transnational body established by the DFG (German Research Foundation), provides clear statistics on cases, which are presented in their annual report. These cases are categorized by subject area, such as life sciences, natural sciences, humanities, and social sciences. However, it’s important to note that these numbers are not normalized to the number of researchers in each field. From my personal experience, I can say that no specific area is more prone to scientific misconduct. However, there is a difference in the dynamics within the humanities and social sciences compared to natural sciences, including life sciences. In my work with PhD students, I interact with them daily in the lab, holding regular seminars and engaging in discussions. This level of interaction may not be as frequent in the humanities and social sciences, which can influence the relationship dynamics. Therefore, I strongly encourage colleagues in those fields to maintain good contact with their doctoral students, as establishing a positive relationship lowers the threshold for open conversations and helps address potential problems in advance.

Yes, your observations are quite intriguing. One might assume that when individuals have extensive interactions, close collaboration, and even co-author publications, the potential for conflicts could be even greater. The increased interdependencies and higher stakes involved could lead to more opportunities for things to go awry.

That is correct. That’s exactly what can happen. But I think that by having the contact, you can try to clarify such things in advance. The supervisors or the structure of the supervision can also be designed in a way that includes courses on the rules of good scientific practice. This way, both doctoral students and professors/lecturers can become better acquainted with the rules and regulations. As I mentioned before, it is important to emphasize the importance of both sides, ensuring that both doctoral students and professors/lecturers understand their roles and responsibilities.

If I were to find myself in a situation where I needed help from you, how can I specifically approach you and make contact?

At the Freie Universität in Berlin, we have a comprehensive system in place. Each department has at least one decentralized ombudsperson, often with a representative, to handle cases. This ensures that if there are any concerns about biases or sensitivities, another ombudsperson can handle the case. However, if you feel that both the local ombudsperson and the decentralized ombudsperson may be biased, you can directly approach the central ombudsperson, whom I currently represent. We can step in and take over the role of mediation in such rare cases.

That means that the more likely case would actually be that I first look at my department to see who the ombudsperson is and then turn to that person.

The reason for having subject-specific decentralized ombudspersons is to address subject-specific differences and ensure that someone with expertise in the particular field handles the cases. However, we maintain regular communication and discussions with these decentralized ombudspersons. It’s important to note that this exchange does not violate confidentiality, as we all operate within the ombud system. We also aim to share our experiences from the central office with the decentralized ombudsman offices, which typically have fewer cases throughout their ombudsman career, especially if they are not based in a central office.

Is it possible to approach you or the decentralized ombudsperson anonymously? I imagine it’s a bit more difficult in the department, depending on how big it is. But this possibility probably exists in principle.

In principle, the option to approach the ombudsman’s office anonymously is available, and we consider it very important. This addresses the fear that caregivers may have regarding potential personal disadvantages if they raise concerns. Anonymity allows individuals to seek guidance and support without revealing their identities. It can also be useful in situations where someone has questions or uncertainties, such as determining if certain actions constitute scientific misconduct. By reaching out to the ombudsman’s office anonymously, individuals can inquire and seek clarification on such matters, ensuring they make informed decisions.

And if I were a doctoral candidate with fears and uncertainties, then I would call you with a suppressed number or send an e-mail from a specially created e-mail address. Or what would be the procedure then?

Exactly, and while it is important to provide the option of anonymity initially, when it comes to an ombudsman procedure, we encourage the complainant to eventually reveal their identity. This is done to ensure fairness and protect all parties involved. By disclosing their identity, it allows for a more open and transparent process where both sides can engage on an equal level. Granting anonymity to only one side would create an imbalance. However, we understand that during the initial contact, it may be crucial for individuals to feel protected and have the freedom to explain their situation without fear. This allows us to assess the case and determine if further action is warranted.

Or whether that’s just a bitter pill to swallow scientifically? That’s why I’d like to ask you again, do you have a duty of confidentiality?

In the legal sense, I don’t believe I have a duty of confidentiality as a doctor would. However, we adhere to the principle of confidentiality, and I strongly believe that this principle must be fully respected. Maintaining confidentiality is essential for the effective functioning of the ombudsman system. If individuals involved have concerns that their information will be used against them, it hinders the system’s ability to fulfill its role. Confidentiality ensures that individuals can trust the process and share their concerns without fear of negative consequences.

Exactly, that means that I could rely on the fact that I can talk to you first and that nothing will leak out, at least until I have given my consent.

Exactly, that’s correct. In certain cases, such as potentially serious instances of scientific misconduct, there may be a need to seek an external expert opinion. However, it is crucial that we respect the confidentiality and consent of all parties involved. Before obtaining an external opinion, we always seek the consent of those affected by the issue. If consent is not given, we will not proceed with involving external experts. This ensures that the process remains fair and respects the rights and privacy of all individuals involved.

And do you continue to provide support yourself in the event of legal action, or do you refer people to other agencies, or are they left to their own devices for the time being?

Exactly, you’ve highlighted an important distinction. As ombudspersons, our role is primarily focused on mediation and resolving conflicts through dialogue and negotiation. We aim to create a space for equal and fair communication between the parties involved. However, if the situation escalates and legal action is pursued, it is beyond the scope of our role. In such cases, individuals are free to seek legal advice and the matter will be determined by a judge. Our resources are primarily dedicated to the mediation process, and once legal action is initiated, we step back as our role shifts from mediation to legal confrontation.

Is there anything you would say should be changed structurally to reduce the occurrence of scientific misconduct or conflicts? Or is there something we could learn from other countries in this regard?

In my experience as a member of the Ombudsman for Science, where we also dealt with other countries through organizations like ENRIO (European Network of Research Integrity Offices) and participated in global meetings on scientific integrity, I find that Germany is well positioned in terms of scientific integrity. However, there are certain structural aspects that can be improved, and we are actively addressing them. One important area is raising awareness of scientific integrity within university education. It is crucial to teach students about the principles of good scientific practice at different levels of their education. For example, in their first semester, students should understand that they cannot simply copy from Wikipedia for their assignments. These are essential points that need to be taught early on, both from a practical and ethical standpoint. At Freie Universität, we are already implementing pilot initiatives to introduce these concepts into various courses of study.

And have you already been able to see the first results?

It takes time for changes to take effect. We have been implementing this for a year now, focusing on the department of physics, and we are about to start implementing it for the department of PolSoz. However, it is still too early to see significant results.

Yes, one year is indeed short, I agree with you. You are also a professor in physics, right?

Yes.

Why do you personally take on the additional time burden of serving as the central ombudsperson for the FU, considering that [being a professor] is already a time-consuming position in itself?

Certainly, it has to do with how one perceives their responsibilities as a university teacher. Personally, I view this task as an integral part of the scientific landscape at our university and in Germany as a whole. As university professors, we have various obligations beyond teaching and research, including reviewing applications and potentially serving as legal representatives in court proceedings, or as with our colleagues in political science who give interviews in talk shows. This perspective aligns with my identity as a university teacher, and I believe it is crucial to safeguard the integrity of science, considering its immense value.

Were there any experiences in your own scientific career where you would have wished for or perhaps received support from outsiders?

Yes, you raise a valid point, and I believe it resonates with almost everyone, not just scientists, but particularly those involved in the ombudsman system. We all have experiences related to scientific integrity. Personally, I encountered a significant challenge during my postdoctoral years in the context of a collaboration with a highly esteemed institution. The director of that institution, who was from Max Planck, expressed dissatisfaction with my conduct and proceeded to write an open, official letter of complaint to the director of my institute. Fortunately, I was fortunate to have the support of my director at that time, who stood by me and expressed a different perspective. I found this support to be immensely important.

Thank you very much for sharing this experience. Is there anything else you would like to add? Is there another important aspect that we haven’t touched on yet?

Yes, there were numerous aspects to consider, but delving into all of them would consume a significant amount of time. However, it is crucial to highlight the availability of various opportunities. In addition, this podcast is currently being produced in collaboration with the Dahlem Research School (DRS), and I personally enjoy participating in DRS events. We should appreciate the support we receive from our university’s presidency for institutions like the DRS, which facilitates the dissemination of such opportunities to students and doctoral candidates. I strongly encourage doctoral students to make the most of these offerings as they can be beneficial and enjoyable experiences.

Professor Heberle, thank you very much for this very exciting interview.

Thank you.

I hope you now have a better understanding of the role and importance of an ombudsperson, as well as when it can be beneficial to seek their guidance. While I sincerely hope that you won’t encounter any challenges during your academic journey, it is reassuring to know that at Freie Universität, there are individuals available to support you and ensure you’re not alone in case of conflicts or concerns. Please remember that if you have any specific questions for Prof. Heberle, you are welcome to join the Q&A session in June. Have a great day and until the next episode!

This interview was conducted by the co-host of our podcast Dr. Marlies Klamt

In this episode, we talk with the Welcome Service here at the Freie Universität Berlin. We learn about how the Welcome Service team can help researchers coming to the Freie Universität and what you need to know when you arrive in Berlin as an international researcher. Note: This episode focusses on doctoral students who have employment contracts with the FU Berlin. In an upcoming episode, we’ll hear more about resources and support for international doctoral students who aren’t employed through the university.

Listen below!

Audio

Highlights

„… because like obviously coming from my own experience, I’ve lived abroad, I know what it’s like to start over in a new country, and not really know what’s going on. So we know how valuable it is to have someone who can, a) translate things, but then also explain them, and just be able to be like, man, maybe you should do this or that, or just sort of help you along the way“

„… So I think that also just, it’s a big step that you’ve taken moving to a new country. And so be gentle with yourself and take the time. And yeah, acknowledge the magnitude of the step that you’ve taken to move to a different country. Like obviously have fun, but also maybe take a step back at some point and be gentle with yourself.“

from our interview with Kirsten Schmiester

Links

Find useful links on this and many more subjects here.

Transcript

Hello everyone and welcome! My name is Amanda Wichert and I’ll be your host for this episode of the Dahlem Research School Podcast. In this episode we are going to be talking to Kirsten Schmiester. She is from the welcome service of the Freie Universität Berlin and she’s going to be telling us some tips and important information for international doctoral researchers who are coming to the Freie Universität Berlin from abroad. So I’m really excited to hear what Kirsten has to say – let’s get started!

If you could introduce yourself and tell us your name and a little bit about what you do at the Freie Universität…

Hi, my name is Kirsten Schmiester. I work at the Welcome Service at Freie Universität and we support new staff members while they settle in Germany in Berlin and at our university. And that obviously also includes anyone who’s doing a PhD at who’s also employed.

So I would like to start by asking you a little bit about what you guys offer. So could you tell us a little bit about what services you offer and what you do for incoming new employees?

Yeah. Absolutely. So our service actually starts before you even get to Freie Universität. So what we do is we pull the data of anyone joining Freie Universität from our SAP system and then we send everyone a postcard introducing ourselves, or an email if we don’t have your address. And basically, yeah, introducing ourselves and saying that we’re here to help if you have any issues, even before you arrive in Germany, before you sign your contract, cause that’s obviously when you also already start to compile all of the documents that you need for, visa issues, employment documents, et cetera, et cetera. You might also already wanna start looking for an apartment from abroad.

So those are the services that we already offer before you even get to Berlin. And then once you’re here, we’re happy to answer any questions you might have about the employment documents, because those are usually in German, and sometimes a little bit hard to understand. It’s – it’s a very bureaucratic German, so even for someone who’s native in German, they’re difficult, let alone someone who doesn’t speak German very well. So we do that.

We’re happy to accompany to your, just signing, to when you go and sign your contract. We also offer a lot of information for new staff members on our website. Basically everything you need to know is on there, so that’s always a good place to start as well.

We also have – carrying on from our website – an onboarding platform which is only accessible for staff members. So you would need your FU account to access that, but that has a whole lot more information, a couple of videos where other departments introduce themselves. A campus tour that we filmed, things like that.

And then we also offer our events throughout the year. So we do a big welcoming event, usually every November for new staff members. And then we have several information sessions on any sort of topic. Everything from taxes to welcoming for a PhD student specifically. Everything where we notice that there is a demand and that there’s a lot of questions we try and offer information sessions for. Yeah, so that’s pretty much what we do in a nutshell.

Thank you. My next question is, maybe you could imagine I’m starting at the university. I just got a job. I’m a foreigner, or an international employee, and I’ve just started with a PhD. What steps do I need to take to make sure that my start is smooth?

Okay. That’s a big question because there’s a lot of things that you have to do. So usually what will happen when you join Freie Universität, as a staff member is, at some point, HR will get in touch with you. That’s the first thing that’s going to happen.

They’re going to send you a whole lot of, employment documents that I mentioned earlier, that you need to fill in. Those are usually in German. We’re happy to help you fill them in and to translate. You will, depending on where you’re from, you will need to look into, whether or not you need a visa, and a residence permit.

The best place to start is usually on your country’s German Embassy website, or the DAAD or any kind of service like that offers information on entry requirements into the country. Then once you have your visa issue sorted out, you’ll probably get an appointment at the HR department to sign your contract.

You’ll need to bring along all of the forms that they sent you by that time. It would also be good if you had opened a bank account. Which again, we’re happy to advise you on how to do that. That’s also not super simple when you first arrive because most banks will require you to be registered in Berlin, which is another thing that you need to do when you arrive here, is to register at a district office.

You need to look into getting health insurance, that’s really important as well. But HR will also tell you a little bit more about that and whether you should get a private insurance company or a statutory insurance company. That depends on your salary. And then obviously you need somewhere to live, which unfortunately is a bit difficult in Berlin. But Freie Universität has an accommodation service that can support you depending on your status at the university. And we also have a long list of different websites and portals that you can use when looking for an apartment. So those are the main sort of basic things. You need a visa, you need a contract, you need a roof over your head.

Those are a lot of steps and yeah, from personal experience, Germany can be a bit challenging, but it’s great to have you guys as a service cause that means a lot. You mentioned at the beginning that students are, that new employees with PhD contracts have to get a visa. Do you guys offer service or support if they’re not sure how to do that or with navigating that process?

We do to an extent. So we can basically give you some general information about what, type of different visas and, residence permits are out there. But obviously the visa and residence permit, situation can get quite tricky, quite fast depending on, where you’re from, what you’re going to be doing in Germany.

And then we actually have experts in, Freie Universität’s international division, and the welcome center over there for international guest researchers. And sometimes we would refer you, to our colleagues over there because they just have a lot more in-depth knowledge, about visa issues and residents permits, et cetera.

So when you think about working in Germany, I know you mentioned you had experience, living abroad as well. Yeah. About Germany. What is special about working in Germany when you think about paperwork or what are the things that you think someone really needs to know when they come here and work here?

Maybe two things, maybe one that’s a bit more, negative and one that’s more positive. Obviously the, the negative aspect or I guess, yeah, I guess it’s just a bit exhausting really. And maybe unexpected for someone who comes from a country where it’s different. But we do love bureaucracy in Germany and there is a lot of paperwork.

And like actual physical paper, like it’s. We’re not very digitalized, unfortunately. So you will probably have to deal with mountains and mountains of actual physical paper, that you need to fill in. And it does sometimes feel like it’s just a lot, that you need to get through before you can even start your position here.

Like you need the residence permit, you need to be registered. All of those things require you to, make an appointment at the immigration office and at the district office. Both of which are difficult to get an appointment right now. So that’s a bit of a challenge. But I think once you’ve navigated that, great job.

So that’s something to be prepared for that there’s going to be a lot of bureaucracy, and a lot of paperwork. But maybe one of the positive things of working in Germany is that, we have a very, solid social security system. I think that’s what a lot of people coming from other countries might not be aware of and are positively surprised.

Actually like we get 30 days of vacation at Freie Universität which I know for anyone coming from America is insane. You get basically unlimited sick days. You have all these like health insurance obviously, but also pension insurance, accident insurance, unemployment insurance. So Germany really does take care of its workforce very well. And you would also obviously benefit from that when working in Germany.

So I had a question. I was just at the PhD retreat last week, and a couple students asked me, I know you said all this, my professor, can’t he just fire me if he doesn’t like me? They kept telling me, oh, I don’t know. Are you sure? And so maybe you can tell us, if you could tell us a little bit about, how much of a risk do I have to get fired as a PhD student? What if my professor, my supervisor, my PI doesn’t like my work and they just let me go?

This is again, from the perspective of you being an employee and having, a full-time contract with Freie Universität.

It’s very hard to get fired. So the first six months of your, contract are a probationary period where it is easier for your employer to, fire you, but it’s a two-way street. It’s also easier for you to leave the employer. So it’s the first six months where you both get to know each other a little bit better.

But basically after you’ve made it through the first six months, it’s very hard to get fired in Germany. So that’s great news as well.

I wanted to ask you a little bit about, a few more things. When you think about working in Germany. What if I, I don’t have a contract. I don’t have a job contract. Is there a benefit to looking for a paid position, as a PhD student? Versus, not having one, especially as an international student?

Sure. Obviously the financial aspect. Yeah. If you’re just doing a PhD and not, having a job, you might. Depending on your financial situation, it might be a little bit difficult.

Obviously getting a job, working somewhere, would help with that. And like I said, you would benefit from all of the social security, things that we already talked about. So that would be health insurance and all the other insurances, that you would get when working, at Freie Universität, for instance.

So yeah, really there’s a lot of benefits for getting a job.

Yeah. So when we, think about, working at the university, and I know one of the benefits would probably also be that you get to, benefit from these amazing services that you, you mentioned that there’s a lot of, a lot of different things that you can do.

I wanna go back to this finding an apartment. Let’s talk about that a little bit more because yeah. Big thing, what would you say to somebody who came to you and said, I’m stuck. I don’t have an apartment.

Yeah. The first thing I would do is ask them about their status at the university.

So if you’re, an invited guest researcher who already has a PhD, so that might not be applicable for the group that we’re talking to now, but, you could, contact the accommodation service because that is their target group. And they will actively support you in finding an apartment.

If that’s not, or if you don’t fall into that category, they also have a very long list of websites, and portals and, things that you can use when looking, for an apartment yourself. And the other thing that we always tell people is just word of mouth. Just tell everyone you know, that you’re looking for an apartment.

It’s unfortunately gotten very difficult to find an apartment in Berlin or an affordable apartment in Berlin. You would probably get something that’s, like 1,500 euros a month for one tiny room. Yeah. But, yeah, spread the word. Tell everyone, you know at your department, Even if you’re new, obviously like everyone in Berlin or all the Berliners know, that’s very difficult to find an apartment here.

So usually if you have some sort of connection, if someone knows someone who knows someone, so just spread the word and tell everyone you know, that you’re looking for an apartment and just stay persistent. I know it’s hard, but you’ll find something eventually.

Yes, that is the, it’s hard. I know we looked for two, two years and yeah. And, so one question I get a lot is, what is those WBS or WBS next to the, the apartment listings? Wohnberechtigungsschein. Can you tell us a little bit about what that is?

Yeah, exactly. So the WBS is, stands for Wohnberechtigungsschein which basically means if you have, a fairly low income or there’s certain, like income levels, that you need to prove that you’re below that.

And if you are below that and there’s the calculation’s quite. Tricky and quite complicated. But, on the city of Berlin’s website, there’s a calculator where you can put in all of your different sort of source of income and et cetera, and it will calculate for you whether or not you’re eligible.

And if you are, that would actually be really helpful because there is, there’s a lot of sort of social housing apartments. That you can only get with the WBS Schein. So if you do qualify, that will all of a sudden open up a whole lot more apartments that you can view and then potentially get.

So that’s always worth looking into. And just, even if you’re not sure if you qualify, just do the calculator on the City of Berlin’s website. Have a look at it, and if you do, definitely apply for it.

Thanks. So if you are here at the Freie Universität and you have, kids, and you’re an employee, what kind of services or benefits do you know about? Could you share with our listeners about what they can do, or what they can take advantage of?

Yeah. One thing that’s really popular is the Freie Universität has its own kindergarten.

So you could try and apply for a spot there. Usually, kids of employees are, get preferred access, to spots, so that’s, always a good thing and I guess very convenient to have your kid on campus. If you’re working here. And then there’s also, our colleagues over in the dual career and family service, and they support anyone working Freie Universität with any sort of family issues, with being able to combine your job with your family.

They offer different information sessions as well. So I would definitely recommend checking out their website, seeing what they offer, going to some of their events or taking advantage of their services and their offers.

Thank you. You, we mentioned at the beginning you also have international experience, and I would like to ask you just about your experience, you were abroad.

What should someone do if they’re studying abroad or they’re doing a PhD abroad? What kind of skill, strategies or tools do you have? Tips do you have for them to really have a successful experience?

Yeah, that’s such a great question. So I, I’m German, but I grew up in America and in England, and then I studied in England, and came back to Germany, for when I started working.

I just really benefited from getting to know the local people. I think that was really helpful. So obviously this is a slightly different situation, but when I started college in England, I made sure to sign up for all these societies, just try and just get to know a lot of people. Be open for new experiences.

That was really helpful. And also to explore the city. Just, go walk around Berlin, take a look at your new city, at your new home. I think that’s really helpful just to get a bit of your, get your bearings, see where you are, within the city, and get to know people and get to know locals if you can.

I know it’s not very easy sometimes. But try and go to some events. Even Freie Universität events, there’s a lot of, open lectures or talks or readings, that anyone who works here or anyone really, I think they’re open for the general public as well, can go to. So that’s a great place to start, to get to know people and to make your first connections.

Do you have any suggestions on how to get to know Germans? And it’s a real question. The international students always ask me this, how do I meet people who are really German? How can I practice my German, any ideas?

I know it’s difficult, but I think, for, to meet Germans, I would maybe recommend going through the website meetup.

I think there’s a lot of different, events and groups on there as well. You can join different groups depending on what you’re interested in. Just like from personal experience. There’s different groups that you know, where you just go to the theater together. That’s really fun. Like I’ve done that a couple of times.

And obviously if you would go to a German play, in that instance you would probably meet some local Germans there. Most Germans actually speak English really well, so you might have to force ‚em to speak German with you. That might be an issue. Yeah. But I think Meetup is a really great website to use, to get to know locals.

Thank you. That’s a great suggestion. I get this question a lot, like how do I connect to people who are here? And you also mentioned that the university has a lot of events. Are there any events that are coming up in the next, I’d say couple of months. Anything that’ll, that you would say that is definitely don’t miss, event at the Freie Universität.

Obviously I’m gonna take this chance to promote ours. So the welcome services, welcome day for international PhD candidates that we have coming up on the 25th of May. So that’s a day where, we’re like half a day, it’s like from nine to three o’clock in the afternoon, that we’ve designed specifically for international PhD candidates.

So we have different, doctoral degree offices coming in to talk about. Sort of the administrative process of doing a PhD, what you need to do, what forms you have to fill in, things like that. We have the international division coming in to talk, about potential or exchanges that you could do while you’re a PhD student.

Colleague of mine from who’s based in the HR department, is going to come and talk a little bit more in detail about working in Germany. Some of the things that we already spoke about earlier, a little bit. So social security, visa issues, things like that. And we also made sure to plan in a lot of networking, time during the day where you can get to know other.

International PhD candidates. So that’s a really fun event that I would definitely recommend. And then we also, run monthly campus tours actually at the welcome service, that are, alternating in English and German. And we really usually get a really nice group together there as well. And there’s also a lot of opportunities.

To chat to other colleagues and get to know them as well and make some connections. So yeah, I think we have the next campus tour coming up on 21st of April. So take a look at our website there as well and join us for a tour, which is also just really fun to get to know the Freie Universität Berlin’s history, if you’re not really familiar with that yet.

It’s a really fascinating and turbulent history. Yeah, so those are my two recommendations.

Would definitely, I feel like maybe I should, take one of those tours someday days.

Absolutely. Join us.

Is there anything else that I didn’t ask you that I should have asked you, that you think, would be really, interesting to, to our listeners.

Let me have a think. What else is important? A question. This is very, again, very like bureaucratic, technical, working at Freie Universität information or question, but something that we get asked a lot about a lot, because maybe other countries don’t do this or it’s very confusing when you first start, is that is the V B L supplementary pension, scheme.

That, you automatically get enrolled into when you start a position at any sort of public sector, company or anything, in Germany in the public sector, which may hesitate obviously is. And that’s something that people are tend to be a little bit confused about. And that we, answer a lot of questions about.

So the V B L is a supplementary pension scheme, that you automatically get enrolled into when you start your position here. I think it’s about 1.81% of your gross monthly income that would get deducted and put into the pension scheme and higher annual visit would also pay, their share, or they actually pay more than the 1.81%.

However, and this is something that you should really look into if you’re a scientific employee doing a PhD, and you have a temporary contract that lasts less than five years, see this is very technical. You have the option to opt out of the scheme, and that’s sometimes where it gets a little bit confusing, because people aren’t aware of that.

And then maybe if you’re not planning on staying in Germany for very long, it’s not really worth it. And you’re paying into this pension scheme, that you might never use. So that’s something to keep an eye out. Or maybe you decide it can’t be, it’s not too bad to collect a little bit of extra pension.

But definitely take a look at that when you’re going through your employment documents, and see which option is better for you.

And that sounds like there’s just, that’s kind of Germany, right? There’s a lot of, a lot of rules and yeah. Questions. And I think if we take, one, maybe big takeaway is ask questions, about these things. Cause it sounds like you guys are really great at answering them. And if you don’t know, you know what you’re looking at, you can take it. To you guys, and it sounds like they, you guys will be able to really help them out.

Absolutely. That’s, that’s what we’re here for and that’s what we’re really happy to do.

Because like we obviously like coming from my own experience, like I’ve lived abroad, I know what it’s like to start over in a new country, and not really know what’s going on. So we know how valuable it is to have someone who can, a translate things, but then also explain them, and just be able to be like, man, maybe you should do this or that, or just sort of help you along the way. So absolutely that’s what we’re here for. We’re here to help you translate anything you need translated, but also just any questions that you have. And literally, like any question, nothing is too small or too complicated to ask us, so absolutely feel free.

I’m thinking we probably also have some listeners who are not working at the Freie Universität, but also interested, do you have any resources that you could say, hey, we maybe can’t help you, but if you have questions, you can go here for people who don’t have a job at the Freie Universität

So I guess that would be if you’re, if you have a scholarship, rather than, a contract, or if you’re just, doing a PhD without any sort of financial funding from the university or any other funding body, definitely contact the Dahlem Research School if you haven’t already.

Their sort of your go-to point for any junior researchers at Freie Universität. Or you could also contact the international division at Freie Universität and they can also help you if you have a scholarship and have questions about that.

Thanks. And, I’ll say, these are, there are lots of questions, a lot of things we didn’t get to.

I’ll say, keep in mind that you can probably also ask your questions about those as you just heard. So I know you studied abroad. If you could time travel back to the beginning of your studies, the very beginning, what would you say to your past self?What tips do you have for a student that’s starting out?

Oh, wow. That’s a really good question. It’s been a while. What would I tell myself? What would I do? I think, like I talked earlier about, being open for new experiences, and getting to know people, that’s obviously a huge aspect, of, of moving somewhere new. And, obviously like it, we all need social connections and interactions and that’s really important.

But I think going back to when I first started, college in England, it was a lot. And like I didn’t really anticipate the whole culture shock aspect of it all. And I really, I think I was very like harsh on myself because, it took me a while to actually settle in and not be like, oh my God, what’s going on?

And why is everything so different here from America, even though we speak the same language. So I think also just, it’s a big step that you’ve taken moving to a new country. And so be gentle with yourself and take the time. And yeah, acknowledge the magnitude, of the step that you’ve taken to move to a different country.

Like obviously have fun, but also maybe take a step back at some point and just be gentle with yourself. And if you need some alone time, that’s fine too.

Thank you very much. That’s great advice. So thank you very much.

So you might still have some questions. Maybe you’re an international researcher who isn’t working at the fight when he visited vetting and you thought, wow, that sounds really cool. I would love to be able to take my questions somewhere. What can I do?

We’re going to be talking to other experts in upcoming episodes that will focus on things. You can do resources that are available to you. If you are a scholarship holder, or if you’re just an individual student without a contract at the university, where can you go? And what can you do? What do you need to know?

In season two of the podcast, we’ll be talking to experts that have information for you from lots of different areas. And we’ll be talking to other experts on being an international student abroad. In season one of our podcast, which is running at the same time -so it’s a parallel season one season two, they’re just different topics. And in season one, we’ll be continuing our interview series where we talk to people who’ve already completed their doctorate here in Berlin or in Germany. And we’ll ask them some questions about their lessons learned and where they landed and their career experience. And maybe looking back at their doctorate. What would they do differently? And what did they, really love about the experience?

I’d also like to remind you about our workshops series. We have a series of really short workshops, just two hours, two and a half hours. And each of these little workshops are designed to give you some information or to give you a chance to learn some new skills to explore some topics that we’ve been talking about in this podcast series. So we’ll have workshops on navigating challenges in the workplace, on your career, case studies on good science. And lots of other topics that can be really helpful for you. You can join those workshops completely spontaneously. You can find them in Lounjee, which is our conference platform and workshop platform. And you will find a link if you’re not already familiar with that Lounjee platform in the episode notes, on the Dahlem Research School podcast website or just by sending us an email. If you get stuck, you can ask us, hey, I can’t find it and we’ll help you out. Thank you so much for being here today, for listening to our podcast. If you liked it, we invite you to share it with your friends and your colleagues. And if you have an idea for us, for the future, something you’d like to hear about, send us a message. We would love to hear from you. Until next time, have a wonderful rest of your day.

This interview was conducted by the co-host of our podcast Amanda Wichert